Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Jul 2026

Vol. 1090 No. 2

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Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

There is someone the Tánaiste knows very well in the Public Gallery. She is the unstoppable and heroic Cara Darmody. Cara has just completed her third 50-hour protest outside the Dáil, calling for real action for children and young people waiting for an assessment of need. It is high time that the Government did the right thing, as Cara has asked for. In fact, the Tánaiste might take the opportunity to meet with her before she leaves Dublin.

People in wheelchairs gathered outside Leinster House on Tuesday. They are people living with Friedreich's ataxia. This is a progressive degenerative neurological disease. They were here at the Dáil because they have been waiting two years for access to Skyclarys, a drug that can slow down the relentless progression of their condition. Their hopes were very high that the HSE drugs committee would finally approve Skyclarys, but those hopes were to be dashed. The committee decided against approving the drug. Instead, it referred it to a rare disease review group. In other words, one committee passing the buck to another committee. That means more delay and more time wasting - time that these people simply do not have because this condition does not slow down. It does not pause. It does not stop for the summer holidays or recess, it just gets worse. It robs people of their ability to stand, walk and swallow. It can rob them of their sight and their speech. When Friedreich's ataxia strikes a person's body, it invades every facet of them. Time just changes for a person. Time moves far more quickly, and time is running out from many of these people. This cruel condition moves relentlessly, ravaging their bodies and their lives, yet the system stands still, putting up obstacle after obstacle, forcing them to wait and wait as time slips by.

This drug was approved by the EU Commission back in 2024. Two years on, it is available in France, Germany, Portugal, Italy, Spain and Czechia. It is available in Britain, Canada and the United States of America, but not here. The people who gathered on Tuesday outside Leinster House see people in other countries getting help while they are left to deteriorate. Emily Felix is one of these people. She is now 28. She has been living with Friedreich's ataxia since she was 12. She says the system is telling her that her life is not worth saving. Craig Coady from Cork lost 13-year old Rory to this condition last September. Now he watches as Paudie, his other son, aged 16, deteriorates with the same disease. He says Paudie does not have weeks to wait. He says, "I can't lose him [too]. He is all I have left." That is what is at stake here. This is urgent. Caithfidh an Rialtas an rud ceart a dhéanamh dóibh siúd a bhfuil Friedreich's ataxia orthu. Ní tráth moille é.

Of course medications have to be properly assessed, but it has been going on for two years. Decisions have to be taken and time is running out. The Tánaiste can fix this. He can bring the pace and urgency that is necessary. The Taoiseach says he will not bring that. Right now, today, people living with Friedreich's ataxia are watching this exchange. They want the Tánaiste to intervene. They do not have weeks or months. They are now counting on him to do something to make this right. What is the Tánaiste going to do?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta McDonald. I thank her for the question. First, I join with her in welcoming Cara Darmody back to Dáil Éireann. It is good to see her again. While she continues her campaign in relation to improvements around assessments of need and disability services in general, it is also worth noting that she has already changed Ireland for the better with the creation of the fund that has made a real difference in terms of more children getting assessments. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, who is here, along with the Minister, Deputy Foley, are committed to bringing forward legislation on the assessment of need process. We look forward to engaging with her on that soon. She is very welcome back. I look forward to seeing her soon.

I thank Deputy McDonald for raising what is genuinely an important issue. I do take the point that when we talk about this in the abstract or from a process point of view in here, that for people watching this is their real lived experience. I know there are people across this House, including Deputy McDonald, who have engaged with patients and families on this drug. I fully understand that it is a worrying and anxious time for them. Today, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, met with Muscular Dystrophy Ireland. As the Deputy can imagine, this was an issue it quite rightly highlighted as well. I think there might have been officials from the Department there as well.

I accept that this is frustrating for people at home, but I still need to say it: there is an ongoing process under way. That is a process guided by science. It is a clinically led process. The HSE is currently assessing this medication. Deputy McDonald is right: there was consideration by the HSE's drugs group on 14 July and it made the decision to seek additional advice from the rare diseases technology review committee. Where I somewhat disagree with her emphasis is that I do not see that as passing a file from one committee to the other; I actually see it as an opportunity to bring together the experts. The purpose of this is to bring in national clinical experts in this condition, crucially with patient representatives, so as to have their voices as well, ensuring that their lived experience plus specialist expertise informs the assessment. There is a deadline given to this work of four weeks as well. Referral to a rare disease committee is intended to ensure that every possible opportunity is given to a medicine to demonstrate its effectiveness for patients.

I take the Deputy's point in relation to 2024. I would just make the point - this does not matter a huge amount to patients, but it is the truth - that the commercial proposal was actually received from the company in Ireland on 27 May 2026, so it is not a question of the Government or indeed our representatives through the HSE or clinicians have been in any way dilly-dallying on this. The application actually came in-----

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

That was there on the 21st.

The Tánaiste

I do not know who said that-----

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

It was the 21st.

The Tánaiste

-----but I am just relaying in good faith the information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Newsome Drennan should allow the Tánaiste to speak.

The Tánaiste

The 27 May 2026 is when the information came in versus 2024, but I accept the seriousness of this matter. Again, this is also just the truth: there are mixed views on the science in relation to this. A number of European countries have said "No". Some have said "Yes". We would not have a situation where the HSE drugs group was deciding to set up a rare diseases expert panel to look at this, to bring together the national experts and the patient advocates, to hear their voices and views, if they did not want to give this every possible chance.

I take the point about timelines. That is why it is important that there is a four-week period now to hear those voices, to hear that lived experience and, crucially, to hear from the doctors. I am not one. We must hear from the clinical experts who specialise in this condition in Ireland about the effectiveness of this drug. We will continue to monitor the outcome of that very closely.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So we are clear, it is not that all of this is frustrating for those living with Friedreich's ataxia; it is actually terrifying for them. I met Emily three or four weeks ago and I was speaking to her again on Tuesday. Even in that short time span, she told me that her swallow and speech had disimproved. We are on the clock here. Time is of the essence. Of course the science is important. We have to lead with clinicians and science, but it has been two years since this was cleared by the European Commission. This therefore is a process not so much guided by science as stalled and delayed by bureaucracy and indecision. I am appealing to the Tánaiste. I never take Leaders' Questions on a Thursday. I never have. I am standing before him for one sole reason. I am terrified for these people. I do not think it is acceptable that we would rise for our summer recess and leave terrified people. In Emily's case she is 28. In another case, Oisín is 27. Paudie is 16. They are terrified. They want their clinicians to have access to this drug.

It can levitate their deterioration in some cases by as much as 50%. I am appealing to the Tánaiste. I am actually begging him to intervene and to do it now. I ask him not to stall or not to delay because these young people, others and their families are now relying on you, Simon Harris, to do the right thing.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

It is always good to see the Deputy on a Thursday. I take the fact that she is here as a sign of her seriousness on this issue. I mean that genuinely. I thank her for that. I also take the seriousness of the issue. There is no disagreeing. We can use different words to describe this situation but there is no disagreement that it is a very worrying and stressful time for these families. That is a statement of fact. It is also a statement of fact that the process - and the Deputy knows it very well - is clear in law as how this goes. It is not a question of the Government stalling, or me, anybody over here or over there stalling. The process is very clear. The HSE drugs group looks at this. If the HSE drugs group feels it can benefit from the expertise of people in rare diseases - the people who treat the very patients the referenced - they bring in those experts and the patient voices in a short time of four weeks and they get the best available evidence in terms of the effectiveness of the drug. That is an appropriate thing to do. The Deputy referenced summer recess. I do not want anyone at home to think that there is any effect, with the Dáil not being in session. This is a HSE drugs group led by clinicians.

I wish to make a broader point because we-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Will the Tánaiste intervene?

The Tánaiste

I will make sure the process is carried in the expeditious timeline that has been set out in terms of that-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When they will know?

The Tánaiste

It has said it will do that within four weeks.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy McDonald, allow the Tánaiste to answer.

The Tánaiste

I wish to make one point because I am conscious that we are on the clock. The Deputy made another point around delays and bureaucracy. I have to make the point back that sometimes those delays are not on the side of the State. We need to have full root and branch review of how medicines are assessed in this country. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is entirely committed to that. Even in the House today, debating when the application came in or when the full business came in, there has to be a better way and more efficient way of assessing drugs applications more generally. We can return to that. On this-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In the meantime, these people are deteriorating in real time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to conclude.

The Tánaiste

-----specific issue, the rare diseases group, which is made up of not politicians-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I know what it is made up of.

The Tánaiste

-----and not of bureaucrats but of doctors who treat these patients.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am aware of that.

The Tánaiste

As am I. The group and the patient representatives will meet through this structure to assess this drug.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Are the doctors in Germany, England and France all different then?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy O'Callaghan.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Are the all doctors-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Gould, Deputy O'Callaghan is next.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Now we know, the Government's report into Aughinish Alumina will be a classic fudge. On the one hand it will say, it cannot rule out the possibility that Irish alumina is ending up in the Russian military supply chain. On the other hand, it will fall short of making any concrete conclusions. This is despite that exports of alumina to Russia have more than doubled since the war broke out. The Tánaiste does not need a report to figure out that alumina from Auginish is ending up in Russian patents. Irish alumina exports to Russia rose from under 400,000 tonnes in 2020 to over 800,000 tonnes in 2024. The latest figures published today showed that these exports are continuing to soar. We know from the investigation carried out by The Irish Times and the organised crime and corruption reporting project that alumina from Ireland is ending up in Russian owned smelters in Krasnoyarsk. Krasnoyarsk is Russia's only smelter producing high purity aluminium. This high purity aluminium is essential for the production of fighter jets and missiles. Krasnoyarsk is a major supplier to the Russian arms industry.

Exports of alumina to Russia has skyrocketed since the invasion of Ukraine. We know it is being sent to a smelter that supplies the Russian war machine. The Government should not be waiting for a report to lay out what has been staring it in the face for years. Alumina from Ireland is being used to make Russian weapons.

The Government's inaction is putting jobs at risk. These are highly skilled jobs with union representation and apprenticeship programmes. They are of fundamental importance to the local economy and community. They should never have been left exposed in this way. The Tánaiste's Government had the power to step in years ago to ban the sale of alumina to Russia and help the plant to find alternative markets. This would have been much easier to do in 2022 when exports to Russia were much lower. We saw this happen in Australia as soon as Ukraine was invaded. Alternative markets were found. Exports stayed stable and are now forecast to grow. They acted decisively to protect their industry and jobs. In contrast, this Government's inaction and indecision has led to this crisis and existential threat to jobs.

Hiding behind the unpublished report is not good enough. There is huge concern in the region about jobs. Will the report be published? When will there be engagement with workers at the plant? Given that the Government has ruled out nationalisation, what measures are being considered to protect jobs? Is the Government seeking EU help in sourcing alterative markets for alumina that is currently being exported to Russia?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy very much. The most important thing - and we should never lose sight of this in any discussion in relation to Ukraine or Russia - is Ireland's absolute clear position in relation to this. Ireland absolutely, fully and resolutely supports Ukraine and the people of Ukraine. We had President Volodymyr Zelenskyy here on the first day of our Presidency of the Council of the European Union to highlight that level of support and solidarity. We deplore the actions of Russia. This is a country that has enthusiastically supported all sanction measures that have come from the European Commission. We are a country that wants to see more sanctions against Russia. We will work at a European level, and indeed, we will lead that work now as President of the Council of the European Union to pursue that agenda.

It is also important to be clear, as the Deputy knows, that sanctions are a matter decided on collectively an EU level. The Deputy referenced Australia. Australia obviously is not in the European Union. If the Deputy's position is that Ireland would now decide at a national level in relation to a sanctions regime, that would tear up every rulebook that we have followed in relation to how at a European level we have worked with solidarity regarding Ukraine. It has always been the situation that we worked at an EU level. That has had a positive effect. The EU has already adopted 20 packages of sanctions since the start of Russia's brutal illegal full-scale invasion. Discussions are now at a very advanced stage on the 21st package of sanctions aimed to deprive Russia of money, goods and technology used to wage its illegal aggression and restrictions on the shadow fleet, payment channels and individuals and entities supporting Russia are intended to close loopholes and tighten enforcement. As I said, we are leading those proposals during our Presidency.

Regarding Aughinish Alumina, what we need to do here is follow the evidence. We need to follow the facts. I have been consistently clear and used the phrase that this country will never cherry-pick when it comes to sanctions. We support sanctions packages that come from the Commission. The Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment is undertaking an investigation to establish the facts. It is important to await the conclusion of that investigation. It is analysing data. It has been in contact with the plant. It is trying to establish the veracity of information that is in the media about the supply chain for alumina from the company. It has received information from our Ukrainian counterparts, the Ukrainian Government and a number of member states that are involved. All of this will be examined. I expect that the investigation will be finalised very shortly. When the investigation is completed, we will discuss the results, and we will work in lockstep with the European Commission in providing any and all relevant information to it and our European colleagues, too. This work is ongoing. We take this extraordinarily seriously.

It was a very fair question in relation to workers and jobs. I appreciate the Deputy raising that. Of course, should we arrive at a position - and I cannot prejudge this at all - where the European Commission makes a recommendation in relation to sanctions, we will want to and need to have conversations about two things. The first is about workers. The second is about crucial supply chains of alumina to the European Union, which is of importance too. As I have consistently said, governments need to be able to do more than one thing. We are very clear that one cannot cherry-pick when it comes to sanctions. We have to follow the facts and evidence. Ultimately, it is for the European Commission to make a recommendation.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The Tánaiste must surely know that these exports are feeding Putin's war machine. Does he not think it is unusual that Ireland is one of the very few European countries where our exports to Russia have increased since Russia invaded Ukraine? That has been driven by the exports of alumina that have more than doubled. Where does the Tánaiste honestly think that alumina is going? It is going into the smelter that is feeding the companies in Russia that are supplying the Russian military. The Tánaiste knows that. He has slept walked into this crisis. He has had ample time to deal with it with more than four years. Has he done anything proactive at all over the past four years or in recent months or weeks to work with the company to find alternative markets for alumina to protect the jobs at the plant? Has he done anything proactive or is he just waiting while the facts are staring him in the face?

The Tánaiste

I am now bamboozled by the Deputy's position. I am trying to be constructive and engage but he wants to use political rhetoric. That is fine. On one hand, he is saying to go ahead and impose national sanctions on a company that he is accusing of funding the Russian war machine and fuelling in terms of Ukraine. On the other hand, he saying to sit down and have a chat with them. Let us take this step by step. The first step is to establish the facts and provide those facts to the European Commission. The second step is to see what the European Commission wishes to do because it is the European Commission that proposes sanctions. Ireland has never blocked. In fact, we enthusiastically support all sanctions proposals that come to the Commission and we currently trying to get the 21st sanctions package over the line.

Absolutely, if there are any implications, and we should not prejudge this, we should work at European and national levels to make sure we can support workers and make sure the supply chain of alumina, a significant amount of which is being supplied to the European market from the mid-west, can continue as well. There is a complexity to all of this. This is not straightforward. We cannot just read a newspaper headline, and say, "That is grand. Slap a sanction on it". That is now how European Union membership works. We have been asked by the Commission - and the Ukrainian Government has welcomed what we are doing - to provide the most up-to-date information. I expect that process to conclude very shortly and I am absolutely crystal clear, as is all of the Government, there can be no cherry picking - and there will not be - when it comes to Ireland supporting Ukraine and taking action against Russia.

Deputy Ged Nash

The spectre of Michael Shine has hung over the town of Drogheda and the wider region for decades. Today is an important day for the hundreds of victims and survivors of this disgraced, convicted sex offender and former doctor. There is now a way forward through the recommendations of the scoping report published an hour ago. This is a day when we can say we are a step further along the road of truth and accountability and that we are a little closer to laying this ghost to rest.

Over 15 years ago, I made my very first contribution in the Dail on this issue. I chose my maiden speech in here to draw attention to the crimes of a man who abused hundreds, possibly thousands, of young men in my community. I made that contribution at a time when help and the hope that justice would ever be done was in very short supply. Over 15 years on and over 30 years since the courageous nurse and founder of Dignity4Patients, Bernadette Sullivan, put her neck on the line by reporting the mishandling of the first complaint against Shine, we now have a pledge to move towards a six phase commission of investigation, chaired by one person and to be run concurrently.

I wish to formally thank the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, her staff, Lorcan Staines and Gemma McLoughlin Burke who developed the report, the expert involvement of Maeve Lewis and Phil Scraton, Adrienne Reilly and her team at Dignity4Patients, but most of all the men who never let go and fought day and night with real dignity to be heard. As the Minister of Health said in her press statement alongside the report, "... their experiences have shaped the report and its recommendations ...".

The overwhelming emotion this morning among the men is one of relief; relief that they are being listened to. They are so used to having doors slammed in their faces. A door to truth and recovery and real restorative justice is now being opened by the State through the Government.

In the words of Dignity4Patients:

... [We are] very pleased that this has happened today. It is a historic moment in that ... finally there is something on the record going towards full vindication of all of the victims and survivors of convicted sex offender Michael Shine.

Many of these men, the victims and survivors, are friends of mine. They are people who I went to school with, played football with and hung around with. Deputy Joanna Byrne would be very familiar with many of them as would Deputy Butterly. I have said time and again that a spell in jail does not justice make.

The Tánaiste

Yes.

Deputy Ged Nash

A light must be shone into the environment that allowed a prolific paedophile to operate within our public health service, with impunity and unchallenged for over 30 years. Questions have to be asked of the former North Eastern Health Board, the order that ran the Lourdes hospital, the Garda, the Medical Council, the DPP and other agencies which knew very well what was going on. The dogs in the street in Drogheda knew what Shine was doing to young boys and men and that is why a statutory inquiry is of critical importance.

I have two questions. Will the men, the Dignity4Patients group, be involved centrally in having the terms of reference with the Attorney General agreed?

The Tánaiste

Yes.

Deputy Ged Nash

Will the Tánaiste commit providing stable and predictable core funding to the Dignity4Patients group to ensure it can continue to support men through this process?

Deputy Conor Sheehan

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

Let me say "Yes" and "Yes" to two very clear questions. Let me acknowledge the Deputy's own advocacy, leadership and involvement in this issue for a long number of years and that of other Deputies from the area, including the Ministers, Deputies Byrne and McEntee, Deputy Butterly and many people across the political divide trying to desperately get a hearing for people who were being ignored, obstructed and, as Deputy Nash said, were having doors slammed in their faces. This is the second time this week in this House we have talked about the actions of vile, despicable paedophiles who were allowed to prey on innocent children and young men in this country.

I read the scoping inquiry report and before I came in today, I read the comments of the victim's group, of the survivor's group. The most powerful thing they said was that they feel "listened to" after decades of being ignored. Being ignored does not capture how despicably cruelly they were treated in terms of this. In fact, it is not that long ago I remember people making the point, not in this House, that there was no need at all for an inquiry in relation to this. I am really pleased we have gotten to this point.

I join the Deputy in thanking my colleague, the Minister for Health, for publishing the report of the scoping exercise into former surgeon Michael Shine. I also thank her for the engagement she has had with the group. I have been a very strong believer that there was a need for some form of inquiry. Michael Shine is a convicted sexual abuser. He carried out vile, despicable acts against boys and young men. He was described by the Court of Appeal as a "prolific sexual offender". I remember when I was Taoiseach engaging on this with the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and others and we asked for options to be prepared as to how we could take an inquiry forward. I am really pleased the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, moved forward on this as well.

I want to praise Lorcan Staines, the senior counsel, who conducted the scoping exercise. Quite frankly, in my experience in this House and in government, getting that chair right matters a hell of a lot. We appointed the right person and Lorcan Staines has been exemplary in how he has carried out this work. He met almost 75 victims and survivors as part of the process and he noted that they were middle-aged to elderly men from all walks of life in Drogheda and the surrounding areas. I acknowledge their bravery. The courage of the individuals who came forward to share their lived experience with the facilitator during that process cannot be easy. He detailed how allegations of abuse reported to him involved a broad range of ages, including reports of abuse when victims were children, teenagers or young adults. Allegations are reported as having occurred at the hospital, in Shine's private practice in Fair Street and in Shine's home, with the earliest allegation said to have occurred in 1964 and the latest in 1990. Victims were of the view that Shine's conduct throughout this, as the Deputy said, was a matter of public knowledge.

Clearly, there is a need to investigate this fully and we now have a model and a way forward, thanks to the work of Lorcan Staines and to the bravery and courage of the men, the neighbours and the friends of the Deputy's, for all they have done to get us to this point.

Deputy Ged Nash

I thank the Tánaiste for his personal interest in this over the years and that of the Taoiseach as well. I acknowledge the work the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has done in representing her constituents over the years who have been affected by the actions of this despicable man, who was convicted a number of years ago of a number of criminal offences but, as I have repeatedly said, a spell in jail does not justice make.

The Tánaiste

No.

Deputy Ged Nash

We need to shine a light into the dark recesses of our society and into the agencies and organisations that allowed the actions of this prolific paedophile to continue unchallenged for over 30 years.

I was very moved when I read the report this morning and the initial passage where Lorcan Staines said that "a further State response is required." That line is the line for which we have all been waiting for 30 years after a number of failed attempts and State-backed initiatives to address many of these issues. There is a novel way forward here that is being proposed. It is interesting and I hope it will work. I repeat that I want to see, as I know the Tánaiste does, the victims, survivors and the Dignity4Patients group centrally involved in helping to craft the terms of reference, based on the truism that nothing should be done for and with victims without them.

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Nash and agree with everything he says. I thank Dignity4Patients as well for the very structured and really constructive and helpful way it went about its engagement as well. The Deputy is right that Shine being sent to a prison cell, where he belongs, is justice in one part but it is nowhere near enough. We saw this again the other day in relation to Waterford. There is a case of who knew what, when and how could this abuse have been stopped. It went from 1964 to 1990, which is an extraordinarily long period of time.

I really think Lorcan Staines has done a very good job in trying to come up with what the Deputy correctly called a novel approach. Nobody wants a commission of investigation that goes on forever and ever. We want to try to get a structured way forward. I think what he is suggesting - I have not seen it before because it is novel - of six phases is a clever idea. Three of the phases should be independent document-based reviews, examining criminal complaints resulting in convictions, the response of the Medical Council and the circumstances in which Shine retired from the hospital. Phase 4 should be short and focused on current patient protection policies in Irish healthcare. Phase 5, really crucially, should be an independent truth and recovery process that should be victim-centered and non-adversarial and should run alongside that work.

Phase 6 should amount to a comprehensive investigation into the actions and events surrounding the abuse committed by Shine, followed by a report setting out, so far as the evidence permits, what was known, by whom and at what stage. It should examine the full extent to which relevant bodies receive complaints, information, warning signs, indications of risk, what actions they took, whether their actions were adequate and timely. He recommends that the publication of the Smith report be revisited only after full completion. We will now engage, as the Deputy suggests, and move forward.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

A few weeks ago, I brought to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, a problem regarding apprenticeships. In fairness, she rang me last Sunday evening. Over the past few weeks, she has resolved this issue, which had given rise to problems for many apprentices. I thank her for resolving it. It is good that mother who never previously engaged with politicians was able to ring me and say that she was grateful that someone had picked up the phone, talked to her and resolved the matter.

I hope the Tánaiste will listen to what I have to say about another issue. In the eighties, when many people had to leave Ireland because there was no work for them as a result of the recession, old yellow school buses used to go around the country picking up people. They picked up students and brought them to national schools and secondary schools. Those buses were owned by the State. Ireland had, on average, a population of 3.5 million during the eighties. At that time, we were transporting between 135,000 and 140,000 children to school. There is a saying down the country about a pot that is used to describe situations where people do not have a lot of money.

The Tánaiste

What was the saying?

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Basically, there was no Exchequer money at that time but we were still able to keep the bus service going. Unfortunately, there have been reviews, public consultations and various documents since then. I have spoken to Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, about this matter - I want to make it very clear that I am not directing any blame at him - but, despite everything, it is the same old story every year. People apply in February for bus tickets for kids who might have been attending a school for two years already - and this is on a discretionary basis - and are informed that will be no tickets for them for their third year in that school. There are 15 or 16 schools in my area. In January or February, parents in Williamstown, County Galway, compiled a list of all the children in the area who need access to a school bus. I handed that list to the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and he sent it on to the relevant Department. You can go from Boyle to Taghmaconnell in Roscommon, right through Fuerty, Athleague and other areas all the way into Galway and you will encounter the same problem.

We can give out about what is happening, but we need to solve it. Will somebody please contact the civil servants in the section of the Department of education that deals with Bus Éireann about this matter? The same thing happens every year. We have gone from a stage where we had State-owned buses to one where there are a lot of public buses now. I accept that there are more children involved, namely 175,000 or 180,000, but the Tánaiste should look at the figures I have provided. The population in the eighties was 3.5 million; it has increased by two thirds to 5.5 million. However, the number of children who need to access school transport has only increased by 30,000.

The end of August is not that far away. Parents have to keep working. Their kids will not have bus tickets.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Over the summer, will the Tánaiste crack the whip in order to get someone to try to resolve this matter once and for all, please?

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for his kind words in respect of Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, particularly in the context of her working on a Sunday evening and getting back to people. It is good to hear that there has been progress on that apprenticeship issue.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Let us be honest, the issue of school bus tickets and places is a perennial one. There have been lots of efforts by successive Governments, Oireachtais and Ministers to try to make progress on this. Some progress has been made, but, clearly, it is a system that is still in need of further reform and improvement and in the context of which a degree of common sense is sometimes needed.

There number of children who have been supported by means of the school transport scheme, as Deputy Fitzmaurice knows and has alluded to, has grown significantly in recent years. Since 2018, the number increased from 120,000 in 2018 to more than 181,000 now. Included in that figure are 24,000 pupils with special educational needs. I am very happy that is the case, but sometimes there is an additional complexity around staffing, the size of the buses, etc, in that regard. From a funding point of view, the scale of the scheme has more than doubled. There was a budget of about €200 million in 2018. We are now spending €537 million on it. There are 181,000 people transported to school daily, more than 8,600 vehicles are used and there are around 11,100 routes involved. I make that point to show that the scale of the operation is significant. There are more than 10,000 routes and thousands of buses involved and the number of students using the services is not a million miles away from 200,000.

The current terms of the scheme are going to continue to apply for the 2026-27 school year. Under those terms, primary school children are eligible for the service if they live 3.2 km or more from their nearest national school and post-primary students are eligible if they live 4.8 km from their nearest school. The Department's priority is to provide transport for all those students who are eligible for the scheme. Children who are not eligible under those criteria but who have completed the application process on time sometimes get seats as they become available. That happens after eligible children have been assessed. That is my understanding of how this quite complicated system works.

There is a broader need here. We have published the way forward in terms of a broader reform of the system. I take the point in that regard, but the priority for this school year has to be to get tickets out as quickly as possible. Bus Éireann has begun to issue tickets for the school transport service for the upcoming school year. That process will continue throughout the summer as routes are finalised. Where a family has a specific query about their child's eligibility status, they should contact the school transport section. I will speak to the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, on foot of the Deputy raising this matter today, and ask that he continues to engage with the Deputy and, I am sure, other Members right across the House.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the Tánaiste for that. The number was 120,000 in 2018. Think back, however, and you will see that it was 135,000 or 140,000 in the eighties. That was the base figure at a time when Ireland was awash with money.

To be blunt, parents who are engaging on this matter would say that they would be as well trying to talk to someone in the White House as they would be trying to talk to someone in Bus Éireann or in the depots. There is a problem. Today, the Dáil will rise. Children will be returning to school on 26, 27 or 28 August. As the Tánaiste knows, many parents are working. We keep talking about public transport. As I always say, if you are involved in hurling or football and you get children in when they are young, they should become pretty good at it. The position is the same when it comes to public transport. If you can supply public transport, people will get used to it and will tend to use it. In the coming weeks, will the Government try to resolve these issues in order to alleviate parents' nightmares and uncertainty? One thing should be borne in mind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should conclude.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

An awful lot of the children I am talking about have had concessionary tickets for the past two years. When the contracts are being drawn up, I just do not know why they to not reference 23- , 33- or 50-seaters. If this is done and if the population increases, all involved would under the procurement rules, be able to adapt.

The Tánaiste

I knew the Deputy would have to mention the GAA, especially with Galway and Limerick playing at the weekend. I wish everybody involved the best of luck.

We are very committed to the school transport scheme. If the Deputy wants to see our commitment, he should look to our budget. The fact that we have more than doubled the amount spent on school transport between 2018 and now is a sign of real commitment. That said, I know the Deputy is a very practical and common-sense person in how he approaches these issues in looking for solutions, when you are spending such a large amount of money, there is an onus on you to consider whether the system is working well. I could not put my hand on my heart and fail to suggest that there are improvements that could and that need to be made. The Government is fully committed to making those improvements.

Our first job was to try to stabilise the situation, being frank. Some good changes have been made. I thank Minister of State, Deputy Canney, for his work in respect of the issue relating to drivers over 70 years of age. I hope that we can see if this can be expanded further, but it was an ageist provision.

I take the point the Deputy made about the Dáil going into summer recess but obviously he will not be going away nor will we in the sense that we will all be working on these issues in our constituencies and keeping in close contact with them. Let us try to get through this September and then to build on the report that was published in terms of what the school transport needs to look like into the future, and I am happy to continue to work with Deputy on that.

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