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Thursday, 24 Sep 2026

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Incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into Irish Law: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Senators Nikki Bradley and Sharon Keogan. This morning, we are considering Ireland’s pathway to incorporation of the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, into Irish law. This is our second meeting on the topic. We are joined in the committee room by Mr. Bruce Adamson, the former Children and Young People's Commissioner Scotland. I thank him for making the journey over. Online we have Ms Juliet Harris, who is director of Together (Scottish Alliance for Children’s Rights) and Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern from Uppsala University in Sweden. They are joining us remotely via Microsoft Teams.

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage on the incorporation of the UNCRC into Irish law and we are looking forward to engaging with these expert witnesses and hearing their views on the implementation. We are really grateful to the three witnesses for taking time out of their busy schedules to have this engagement and share their knowledge and expertise in the area. It will be really beneficial to us as we consider this topic.

I have a couple of housekeeping matters to go through. I remind everyone on Microsoft Teams that the chat function should only be used to make the team on-site aware of technical or urgent matters and should not be used to make general comments or statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution they confirm they are on the Leinster House campus.

In advance of our witnesses delivering their opening statements, I advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For the two witnesses appearing via Microsoft Teams, I point out that there is some uncertainty regarding parliamentary privilege that applies to the evidence they will give when outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House. If they are directed by me to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter, it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses will be allocated three minutes' speaking time for their opening statements. For the witness in the room, there is a clock just under the screen. For the witnesses appearing via Microsoft Teams, they might want to have a little stopwatch as we move through the proceedings. We have three minutes for opening statements but when we move to questions and answers, members have seven minutes to ask their questions and receive answers. For the members online it might be handy to have a watch in front of them. We will start with Mr. Adamson followed by Ms Harris and Professor Thorburn Stern.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

I thank the Chair for such a warm welcome. Incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is the most important thing a country can do in legislative terms to ensure that children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled. A wide range of international and domestic laws have protected children’s rights, but the UNCRC is special. It brings together the full range of civil, cultural, economic, political and social rights, alongside aspects of humanitarian law, for everyone up to the age of 18.

When the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Act came into force on 16 July 2024, it gave children a fundamentally different legal status. The Act adopted a maximalist approach fully incorporating the UNCRC and its first two optional protocols as far as possible within devolved competence. The Chair of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child described it as “the best piece of children’s rights legislation in the world”.

Children were central to the leadership of the campaign for incorporation. I have not been able to bring any Scottish children with me, but their voices are really important. We asked children to use just seven words to describe why rights were important, an exercise in brevity that some of us could really learn from. They said things like, “Rights are help before you even ask”, explaining the positive obligation that rights place on the state to provide the things children need. They said, “My rights are my armour to me”, demonstrating the protective element of rights. They also said, “My rights give me power, freedom, courage”, highlighting that children can be empowered by rights and recognising their right to participate in decision-making. Provision, protection and participation, along with the obligation to take a preventative approach and positive obligations are at the heart of what we were trying to achieve with incorporation.

Incorporation places legal obligations on those who exercise power and creates a means of holding them to account. This leads to better outcomes, and more efficient and effective public services built around prevention and positive obligations. The Act provides interpretive and remedial mechanisms. Courts and tribunals can draw on the wider framework of general comments, concluding observations and other international material, recognising that the UNCRC forms part of a living international legal framework. Children can rely directly on their rights in court with specific provisions recognising the barriers children face in accessing an effective remedy.

Incorporation is about much more than legal enforceability. It creates a wider implementation architecture through a children’s rights scheme, child rights and well-being impact assessments, reporting duties, participation, accessible complaints, access to justice and consideration of children’s rights in budgeting. Two years on, we can begin to see the effect. There has not been a flood of litigation. Instead, a small but important body of case law across criminal justice, sibling contact and housing is demonstrating that the Act's legal force is making a difference already.

We are seeing institutional change. Public authorities are building their confidence in using rights within governance and planning. Our parliament is embracing its role as human rights guarantor. The Act’s broad reforms, coupled with parallel advancements such as protections from physical punishment, raising the age of criminal responsibility and removing children from the prison system, demonstrate Scotland's commitment to a child-rights-based approach. The Act’s true success will hinge on whether it improves services for children and delivers the empowerment and systemic protection they need.

Ms Juliet Harris

I thank the committee for inviting me today. Together is an alliance of over 600 organisations and individuals working to strengthen awareness, understanding and implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in Scotland. We were strongly behind the campaign for the UNCRC incorporation Act, which came into force in July 2024. Importantly it was built on a model that combines proactive duties with legal accountability. As Mr. Adamson mentioned, the proactive duties require government and public authorities to consider children’s rights before they make decisions. This includes measures such as child rights impact assessments, the children’s scheme and duties to report on progress. Ireland already has similar commitments in Young Ireland. Incorporation in Scotland has put measures like these on a statutory footing.

Alongside this, the Act makes it unlawful for public authorities to act incompatibly with the UNCRC. This provides routes to court when that happens. Proceedings can be brought by children themselves. The Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland, the Scottish Human Rights Commission and organisations with sufficient interest can also bring cases on children's behalf. These two parts, the proactive and reactive duties, work together. The possibility of legal challenge means public authorities take their proactive duties seriously. These duties have been designed to try to ensure most problems can be resolved before issues even reach court.

As Mr. Adamson mentioned, children and young people were involved at every stage of the campaign for UNCRC incorporation. They campaigned for more than a decade, spoke directly to parliamentarians, Ministers and decision makers. They were essential in building the cross-party support that led to the Bill being passed unanimously.

Two years on, we are seeing change. Public authorities are changing their policies after assessing their impact on children. The courts are beginning to clarify what the rights mean in practice. Families and front-line staff are using the UNCRC Act to challenge decisions without having to go to court. I would be happy to give the committee some examples today.

Our experience is that incorporation is the starting point for long-term culture change. For it to work, the law needs to be written in a way that people who are not lawyers can understand and use it. It needs to be supported by sustained awareness-raising. I would be happy to answer any questions members may have on incorporation in Scotland.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I thank the committee for this opportunity to contribute to the discussion on Ireland's pathway to incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, CRC, into Irish law. I am honoured by the invitation and hope to be able to contribute reflections on Sweden's incorporation of the convention that may be useful in the Irish process. I am professor of public international law at Uppsala University and a visiting professor in human rights law at Lund University, both in Sweden. My contributions to this discussion draw on my research on children's rights and on incorporation, as well as on my experience of having served as an external expert at various stages of the legislative process leading to the incorporation of the CRC in Sweden.

Sweden ratified the CRC in 1990. In Sweden's dualist legal system, ratification of an international treaty does not automatically make the treaty part of the domestic law of the State. This requires incorporation. After years of discussion on whether to incorporate the CRC into Swedish law, the Government in 2018 presented a Bill for this purpose. The main aims of making the convention Swedish law were to clarify that courts and other administrative authorities must take the rights of the child into account in matters concerning children, and to strengthen the child's status as a rights holder. The Swedish Parliament passed the Bill later in 2018, and the incorporation law entered into force on 1 January 2020.

The CRC is one of only two human rights treaties to have been incorporated into Swedish law. The other is the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR. The incorporated CRC is regarded as "ordinary law" in the Swedish legal hierarchy. This means that in the event of a conflict between the convention and other legislation of the same status, general principles of interpretation apply, such as lex specialis and lex superior. The convention thus does not take precedence over all other legislation. The ECHR, in contrast, has a stronger standing in the Swedish legal hierarchy, as there is a provision in the Swedish Constitution providing that no law or other provision may be adopted that contravenes Sweden's obligations under the ECHR.

There are several lessons to be learned from Sweden's incorporation of the CRC and the process leading up to it, of which I would like to highlight three. One such lesson is that it is important to consider what status the convention should have as national law within the national legal order. In Sweden, the fact that the CRC was given the status of ordinary law has resulted in a certain lack of clarity regarding the weight to be given to the rights it sets out in relation to other legislation such as, for example, the Aliens Act. Another lesson is the importance of training and detailed guidance on how the CRC, as domestic law, is to be interpreted in individual cases. Lack of clarity on methods of interpretation and on how to understand the relationship between the CRC and other legislation creates confusion, not least among those applying the CRC who lack legal training.

Finally, it is important to bear in mind that, while incorporation can help make the implementation of the rights of children set out in the CRC more effective, and strengthen the arguments for why children's rights must be taken into account both in individual cases and in legislation and policymaking, the work is not finished once an incorporation law has entered into force. Rather, that is the beginning of the work of making this human rights instrument an integrated part of the domestic legal culture. This is work that can take time and which is not without its challenges.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this statement and look forward to addressing any questions and reflections that members might have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor Thorburn Stern. It is proposed to publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Members have seven minutes each, which will include responses. Members should direct their questions to the witnesses given that two of them are online. The witnesses online may use the indicator to raise their hand if they want to respond to a question. I ask members to strictly adhere to the agenda topic under consideration at this meeting. That is imperative. We will proceed in accordance with the speaking rota. Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony is first, followed by Deputy Daniel Ennis.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

I thank Professor Thorburn Stern, Ms Harris and Mr. Adamson for joining us this morning. Two ladies are online. I thank them for being here. I know Mr. Adamson was here early as I saw him earlier. He gets full marks. Fair play to him.

I will start with Mr. Adamson. He stated that incorporation is about more than court enforcement. What non-judicial measures are most important for successful implementation?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

This is about changing culture. Children do not have the same political or economic power as adults. They do not have the same access to justice. This legal accountability changes the way in which people who are exercising power consider children. In includes the participative element of having to demonstrate that the views of children have been sought. Tools such as impact assessments and rights-based budgeting are starting to change the way in which local authorities and other public bodies in Scotland are exercising their power. It is not just about litigation but having the tools that allow a state to make better decisions. As Ms Harris said, the Scottish Act not only requires public authorities to act compatibly with the enforceability element, but also sets out a range of measures that are tools for the implementation of the convention as well.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

Scotland's model combines proactive duties with legal enforceability. Which aspect has had the greatest impact on improving outcomes for children? That is what matters.

Ms Juliet Harris

They are both mutually enforcing, so they are both as important as each other. The fact that the UNCRC is binding in law and that children have access to the courts focuses attention on the proactive measures within the UNCRC Act. Where the greatest change is being made is through the proactive measures, but that is only because there is the option of legal accountability to hold the Scottish Government to account if those are not taken forward. The proactive measures that are really making a difference at the moment are the children's rights scheme and the use of child rights and well-being impact assessments.

Since the UNCRC Act commenced, we have seen a threefold increase in the number of child rights and well-being impact assessments conducted by the Scottish Government. There were 225 in the first year post incorporation. What these child rights impact assessments do is make decision-makers think about children from the outset of decisions, often in relation to decisions where children might normally be forgotten or disregarded. There are some interesting case studies of how it has made a difference to the collection of waste in the Highlands. The Scottish Government has done impact assessments on the bread and flour regulations. They are areas that a person would not necessarily think of as relating to children, but they make a real difference to the lives of children and young people.

The children's scheme itself is a measure that the Scottish Government publishes every year. It contains 41 different commitments that the Scottish Government is making to mainstream children's rights. This includes everything from the involvement and participation of children and young people at every level, through to raising awareness of the UNCRC, as well as commitments to try to address some of the issues that we have with the scope of the UNCRC Act as a result of the complex devolution settlement in Scotland.

The fact that the Scottish Government has to report on the scheme every year is a real way of holding the Government to account and pushing for progress. This is used across civil society and we engage children and young people in this accountability as well. That helps to ensure that these proactive measures to embed children's rights from the outset are taken forward at all levels of government so that the reactive measures challenging breaches of children's rights through the courts is only used as a last resort.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

Sweden incorporated the UNCRC as ordinary legislation. Would Professor Thorburn Stern recommend that we give the convention a stronger legal status to avoid conflicts with existing laws and constitutional provisions?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Yes, I would. That is based on the experience Sweden has had so far. As I said, the convention was ratified in 1990. Since then, huge work has been done to transform parts of the convention, primarily the articles on the best interests of the child and the right of the child to be heard, into Swedish legislation. They have been transformed into the legislation.

The problem that has arisen after incorporation is that there is, as I mentioned in my statement, an uncertainty when there is a conflict between the law and the convention and what already exists in Swedish legislation, so to speak, as to which is to be accorded more weight. This has to do with the way the convention is drafted and the way the articles are worded. They are often described in the Swedish context as being quite broad and wide and not being precise enough compared to Swedish legislation if you look at, for example, certain provisions in the Aliens Act, which is an example that is often mentioned. In order to avoid these conflicts and to ascertain that the convention and the rights of the child are accorded the weight it is intended to accord them, according the CRC a higher status in the legal hierarchy would be a good idea.

An Cathaoirleach

We move to Deputy Daniel Ennis.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I thank Professor Thorburn Stern, Ms Harris and Mr. Adamson for coming in to see us and for all their work to date on this.

In Mr. Adamson's opening statement, he mentioned that there has been "a small but important body of case law across criminal justice, sibling contact and housing". Could he elaborate specifically on the cases related to housing and how they impacted children's access to housing in Scotland?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

The housing case we have had so far is Glasgow City Council v. James J R Stringfellow and Others just this year. It considered housing and removal proceedings. The court in that case specifically said you had to take children's rights into account. While there was not a finding that rights were breached in that particular case, the finding that the CRC applied in housing was really important because it shows that the intention of the Act was to apply children's rights right across every aspect of things that impact them. We have had cases that relate to things like children's hearings, which you would expect, but to start to see them in housing, transport and other issues shows the real value of the cross-cutting approach of incorporation.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

Great. I thank Mr. Adamson.

In Ms Harris's opening statement, she said, "The proactive duties require government and public authorities to consider children's rights before they make decisions." What impact has this proactive duty had on public authorities and councils, on their social housing obligations and when it comes specifically to child homelessness?

Ms Juliet Harris

In terms of homeless, I cannot come up with any examples off the bat. More generally, the child rights impact assessments that are being done are really making a difference in making sure that children's rights are considered from the outset. We have an issue in terms of the way the UNCRC Act is applied across Scottish law and we have an issue that the UNCRC Act applies only to law that was passed directly by the Scottish Parliament. This means that many laws that were made by Westminster for Scotland prior to the establishment of the Scottish Parliament are not included. Frustratingly, this covers a lot of the housing legislation in Scotland so it means that there is limited scope to actually use those reactive duties in relation to housing and children's rights. This is something we have been pressing with the Scottish Government. It is where the proactive duties of the UNCRC Act are important. In the children's scheme, the Scottish Government has set out a commitment to try to address some of these constitutional complexities. We really hope that once all areas of law that are devolved to Scotland are included within the scope of the UNCRC Act, we will see that broader impact across all areas of children's lives, particularly in relation to housing as there is a housing crisis in Scotland.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I thank Ms Harris.

In Professor Thorburn Stern's opening statement, she said that "the work is not finished once an incorporation law has entered into force". I think Mr. Adamson and Ms Harris have touched on that as well. Can Professor Thorburn Stern reference any specific instance where further work has been required after UNCRC incorporation and in relation to the allocation of budgets when it comes to enforcement, the training, as some of the witnesses mentioned in their opening statements, and, further on, the implementation?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Absolutely. One of the things specifically mentioned by the Swedish Government in the Bill on incorporation was the need for training of government authorities and others who are to apply the convention, that is, training on both what the convention is actually about - the individual articles - and what it means in relation to Swedish legislation. That training is ongoing still. It has been a few years now since the convention was incorporated, but there is still continuing work on training and educating people on all levels within government, in municipalities, etc. Since the incorporation Act, there is a requirement that child rights impact assessments are to be made in the drafting of new legislation. That usually works but perhaps not as perfectly as one would have hoped all the time. That is also work that needs to continue to be developed.

One of the most important things when it comes to the work to be done after incorporation, as I think both Mr. Adamson and Ms Harris touched on, is changing the legal culture. I am afraid I am not as familiar with Irish legal culture as I should be. In the Swedish context, there has been some hesitance towards, in particular, economic, social and cultural rights and their relationship to political and civil rights. Traditionally, that has been the case. There is the idea of understanding both the holistic nature of the convention and what it means in practice for implementing the convention as effectively as possible. That change of culture is the most important thing that happens after incorporation, and incorporation is a very good tool to make that change.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I thank Professor Thorburn Stern.

I will get this in really quickly if I can. Article 31 of the UNCRC recognises "the right of the child to rest and leisure, to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child and to participate freely in cultural life and the arts". In this country we can see how this right has been undermined for children, especially those living in emergency accommodation, who do not even have access to somewhere to do their homework, never mind space where they can engage in play. How has the implementation of the UNCRC affected challenges like this for children living in emergency accommodation? I see, for instance, in my constituency, in Dublin 1, that even on the simple walk from their emergency accommodation, their home, to school, the rights of the child are under attack. Do the witnesses have any examples from their own work on that?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I do not have any specific examples to relate off the bat, but the right to play and the rights the Deputy mentions are among those that have been discussed as to how to put them into practice due to the wording of the article in the convention. What I think incorporation has helped with is, first of all, understanding that this is a right for the child, to have the right to play, the right to access culture, etc. There is a changing of a mindset there. I also think that when working with implementing those kinds of rights, the simple fact that the convention is Swedish law - it is not only an international instrument that the state is bound by but actually Swedish law, domestic law - helps in understanding what the state is required to do, what you are required to do on different levels and what government authorities, for example, are required to do in relation to different kinds of housing-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Professor Thorburn Stern. Mr. Adamson, did you want to come in very briefly?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

If I may. Poverty is the most important human rights issue. We have exactly the same problems in Scotland. As Professor Thorburn Stern just said, that right to rest, recreation, play and involvement in cultural life is not just a nice-to-have; we know that it is essential for children's development and sense of belonging.

There is a connection between that and the right to an adequate standard of living and additional protections for children in care, disabled children and others. That is an essential rights package that connects to Article 4, which requires us to use all available resources to the maximum extent possible. We still have the same problems in Scotland but we are starting to use different language. The Child Poverty Action Group, Shelter and others working on housing have started to be able to engage in those challenges to local authorities, particularly in relation to things like temporary housing, where they need to demonstrate they are using their budgets effectively to ensure all of those rights take place. They can actually have the conversation now because they have legal protection, whereas previously those conversations would not have even happened. We have not fixed the problem but-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. We might come back to that in the next part. I call Deputy Boland.

Deputy Grace Boland

Have there been any cases in Sweden in relation to the UNCRC rehousing?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

On rehousing, not that I am aware of.

Deputy Grace Boland

No one has taken any case grounded in the UNCRC in relation to the right to housing.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I am trying to think whether I know of one.

Deputy Grace Boland

That is okay. I am just wondering how it works in practice.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Not in the higher courts, as far as I am aware. I am sure the convention has been invoked in relation to issues of housing, but I cannot give the Deputy a specific example. I am sorry.

Deputy Grace Boland

That is no problem. Ms Harris mentioned impact assessments many times. Anyone familiar with data protection impact assessments knows the pain of them but also the added level of bureaucracy, administration and time. I am very supportive of the UNCRC, but I am also very disappointed with the level of bureaucracy in Ireland and the slowness with which things move. Has Ms Harris any advice for us as to how we make sure that impact assessments do not further delay the implementation of important initiatives and how we avoid bureaucracy to ensure it is not just used by the civil and public service as another delaying tactic?

Ms Juliet Harris

I am completely with the Deputy on that. It is important that impact assessments actually have an impact rather than just being another paper exercise. It is about using an impact assessment that is proportional to the decision being made. That has certainly been a key learning from Scotland, and I know that would be shared from the learning in Wales as well. At the Scottish Government level, we have a screening tool that is used by civil servants from the outset to see whether they need to do a full impact assessment, or whether it is a decision where they just need to do an initial impact assessment. That allows a level of impact assessment that is proportionate to the decision being made. At a public body level, a number of public bodies have come up with their own model for impact assessments. Sometimes that can be a decision-making tool just to prompt people to think about children from the outset of a decision. It does not have to be a 30-page document.

What impact assessments do, which is important, is ensure accountability to children and young people. It shows again how government at all levels is taking account of children’s rights and how decisions have been informed by looking at the UNCRC. Importantly, it also provides a prompt for all levels of government to look at what children and young people think about a decision.

I was talking to the Highland Council last week. One way that it has helped to reduce bureaucracy but make sure the children’s voices are right at the heart of impact assessments is by setting up a library of children’s voices. In the Highlands, the council has a repository of everything that children have said to it. When it is doing impact assessments, it can see what children have already said on certain matters and take that into account in the impact assessment, rather than having to always go and do something new.

Deputy Grace Boland

I am conscious of my time. How do they make sure the library of children’s voices stays current? Is there an exercise that is done every year? How is the budget allocated for these things?

Ms Juliet Harris

It stays current because anybody in the Highland Council who is engaging with children and young people wants it to be part of the library. They automatically send it to the lead on children’s rights in the Highland Council, who assesses the method of participation to make sure that it meets good practice and puts it in the library of children’s voices. It is something that people want to be involved in, rather than something that people have to play catch-up on.

Deputy Grace Boland

Ms Harris might help me a little with that. Is it that there is a public consultation with children on everything? Again, I am just thinking of the slowness of the system. How does this work in practice?

Ms Juliet Harris

It is to avoid that. Any piece of work that already involves children, or any time that children’s views are being sought, that is popped into the library of voices. Therefore, those involved do not need to consult with children again on similar decisions because they know what children think about particular issues. A lot of this might come through local youth work, for example, or some of the work that the children’s rights team within the Highland Council is already doing. It is very much to avoid duplication and make sure that information is already there. It is also so that children are not asked about the same thing time and time again without seeing any change being made. It is an important way of removing bureaucracy and removing over-consultation with children, but still making sure their views are at the heart of the impact assessments that are done.

Deputy Grace Boland

Regarding the Scottish perspective, does every single government department and agency have to allot a certain proportion in relation to the children’s lens and the children’s rights convention? How do they make sure departments are adequately funding this aspect of their work?

Ms Juliet Harris

It is mainstreamed into the funding for each piece of work that is done. It is important to note that it produces better policy if children and young people are involved from the outset.

Deputy Grace Boland

I agree with that. However, I can see the push-back being, “Oh, we do not have the money to do that". I am just wondering how those in Scotland have hard-coded that into how departments and agencies work.

Ms Juliet Harris

It is by having a tiered impact assessment where the impact assessment is proportional to the decision being made, and by making sure we do not over-consult with children and young people. It is about making sure, whether it is the Highland Council or the Scottish Government, there is an evidence bank of what children have already said. That is something the children’s rights team does with the Scottish Government as well as at a local level. Having a dedicated children’s rights team within government, or having a member of staff within local councils to support the other departments to mainstream children’s rights, is very important. Working in that way means there is always that dedicated resource that means they feel they are supported and it is not an added burden on any civil servant making a decision.

Deputy Grace Boland

That was very helpful. Thank you.

Deputy John Connolly

I thank our guests. I am interested in two aspects; the impact of implementation but also the process by which it gets incorporated into national law. I am looking at the Swedish model. Something that is not comparable here is this idea of ordinary law. When we bring in legislation, we have to be cognisant of whether it conflicts with our Constitution. Is there the same issue in Sweden in terms of ordinary law?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

What I mean by ordinary law is that it is not on the level of the constitution, as it could be in some legal systems. It is also not on the semi-constitutional level, which is how the European Convention on Human Rights is sometimes described, given that there is a certain provision in the constitution on its status. Ordinary law is just the normal body of law. There were discussions in Sweden on whether to give the Convention on the Rights of the Child the same status as the ECHR in the Swedish legal system because that would mean it would be given more weight or higher status. That is what I mean by ordinary law.

Deputy John Connolly

Does that imply it has a kind of inferior status to other laws?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

No, it does not have an inferior status. It has the same status as any other Swedish law. The problem that has surfaced, when there were discussions about it before the incorporation, is that the way the convention is written with its articles that are quite broadly worded means that many of them are perhaps not as precise as a piece of ordinary legislation.

A provision in an ordinary law means that it is found difficult some times to see whether it is the convention article that is to be prioritised or the other piece of Swedish legislation. That is where the problem is, not that there is some difference in status in any formal way.

Deputy John Connolly

We ratified the convention two years after the Swedish Government. It took the Swedish Government about 28 years to develop the legislation. That is the maths I see, so we are a small bit behind it. One of the reasons I ask about the conflict with other law and the status of the law is that the Department of children here in Ireland would point to the fact that many aspects of the convention are already covered by other legislation. If we compare that with the situation in Sweden, would Professor Thorburn Stern say what we have done to this point is insufficient?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Looking at it from the Swedish perspective, several provisions of the convention were, as I mentioned before, transformed into Swedish legislation long before the law on incorporation. The aim of incorporation was to strengthen the child’s status as a rights holder which was based on the fact that, although the convention has been binding on Sweden for a long time, the status of children and the impact of the convention in practice was not as strong as had been expected. That is basically the reason for incorporation.

There were years of discussion on whether to incorporate. There have been several government commissions of inquiry looking into the matter of incorporation. The matter has been discussed back and forth for a very long time, weighing the pros and cons. It was found that incorporation would help the convention to have the impact it was intended to have from the beginning and help Sweden to fulfil its obligations under Article 4 of the convention on implementation. It has not been an easy path.

Deputy John Connolly

Did Scotland itself adopt the convention before it introduced the legislation? Was it incorporated by the UK government?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

The UK government ratified the convention. The obligation for implementation of international obligations transferred to the Scottish Parliament through the Scotland Act.

Deputy John Connolly

Do the other devolved parliaments in Northern Ireland and Wales have the same opportunity?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

A similar discussion on incorporation is taking place at the moment in both Wales and Northern Ireland. There is some level of discussion and commitment by political leaders.

Deputy John Connolly

What about England itself?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Less so.

Deputy John Connolly

When did the UK ratify the convention?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

In 1991.

Deputy John Connolly

Okay. Can I ask about the impact? One of the impacts in Scotland that is really interesting is raising the age of criminal responsibility and removing children from the prison system. I assume that means removing children from a designated children’s prison system. Is Scotland closing down reformatory centres for children?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Young offender institutes cover from 16 up to the 20s, so they still stay open, but children, that is everyone under 18 years, goes into welfare-based protection if they need to for their safety or the safety of others.

Deputy John Connolly

From 16 years downwards.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

From 18 downwards.

Deputy John Connolly

So anyone between the ages of 16 and 18 who might be criminally responsible for an act are rehoused.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

They would be detained in a welfare-based secure unit if it was not safe for them to be-----

Deputy John Connolly

A welfare-based secure unit. What is the practical difference between that and-----

Mr. Bruce Adamson

It still has locked doors, etc., but it is run through the welfare system rather than the prison system and it takes a welfare-based approach rather than a penal approach.

Deputy John Connolly

How long has that approach been in operation?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

That is very new. This was a significant concern where we had a number of children die by suicide in our young offenders institutes, so there was really strong political will-----

Deputy John Connolly

It is a very noble gesture.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

It is also very effective. It delivers better outcomes.

Deputy John Connolly

Very good.

An Cathaoirleach

We will now go to Senator Nessa Cosgrove.

Senator Nessa Cosgrove

I thank everyone for their opening addresses. My question is for Professor Thorburn Stern and Ms Harris. Was there much pushback from local government right up to when the whole process started? Was there much resistance? Will Ms Harris speak on the Scottish experience?

Ms Juliet Harris

Yes, definitely, which is why it took children and young people to campaign for over a decade for the UNCRC to be made binding in law. For me, the journey very much began with developments in Wales where they introduced the so-called Welsh measure on children’s rights, which was a due regard duty, which means you have to think about children’s rights but not actually have a rights-compliant outcome to the decision. I think that was in 2012, although I might be slightly out on that. When that happened, the Scottish Government was very keen to show that Scotland could be as good if not better than Wales and do something else. The moment they started to look at actually making children’s rights enforceable in the courts, there was a real nervousness. Developments in Wales did make children and young people in Scotland look and think, “Hang on, if my rights are not really binding in law are they really rights? If they are just something that you just have to think about, what can I do if you do not get them right? What can I do if my rights are breached?” That started to empower children and young people to campaign for UNCRC incorporation. A really important role was played by the Children's Parliament and the Scottish Youth Parliament, which involved marches, speaking directly to decision makers and speaking to the First Minister. It was through that direct relationship between children and young people and decision makers that there was gradually less nervousness from the Government at the idea of making children’s rights law. It did also involve our Government Ministers meeting others from other countries which have incorporated the UNCRC and hear the stories of the fact that it does not necessarily result in lots of court cases but it works upstream. It acts as a preventative approach to stop violations of children’s rights from taking place. It really took those conversations.

Senator Nessa Cosgrove

We have a child poverty and well-being unit in the Department of An Taoiseach here. You would imagine that would be a good place to start because the mechanisms are there under one Department.

Would Professor Thorburn Stern say the same? Was there pushback in Sweden too? Did there have to be a mobilisation of young people for politicians and lawmakers to actually accept this?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Not so much a mobilisation of young people, I think. There was a mobilisation from children’s rights organisations, which of course involve children in their work. There was a lot of lobbying from child rights organisations. The Ombudsman for Children in Sweden was very much in favour of incorporation throughout the long process – or the many processes, I should say – of incorporation.

Perhaps most of the scepticism towards incorporation came from lawyers and within the court system. That has to do with the issues of legal culture that I mentioned before. Is this an instrument we can use? How do we use it? Does it work together with Swedish law? That is interesting in light of the fact that the European Convention on Human Rights has been incorporated into Swedish law since 1995-----

Senator Nessa Cosgrove

I am sorry to cut across but I am conscious of time. Is there any one area where it has been effective, say in reducing child poverty, addressing child homelessness, mental health services or addiction? Maybe Mr. Adamson could answer. Since it has become law, is there any area he thinks that it has definitely had an impact? What model of participation did the witnesses use for young people? We use the Lundy model a lot in youth services to hear the children’s voices. Is that something that the witnesses used?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Ms Harris and the Together members are amazing at this. We have a long tradition in Scotland. We have worked very closely with Professor Lundy who was a member of our expert advisory group on incorporation, as was Professor Ursula Kilkelly, who I understand the committee will be hearing from next week. That has cut through all of our work. Participation is really key. That has been the biggest difference in terms of impacting things like poverty and housing, as in the waste management example in the Highlands that Ms Harris mentioned. What we are starting to see is change in the way decisions are made. There is budgeting, impact assessments and that understanding of the interrelated element of rights. The reason you go for full and direct incorporation is it allows you to understand the interplay between rights. When you are looking at the highest obtainable standard of health and how that links to adequate standards of living and housing, and poor housing impacting health and education, it is about bringing those things together. How we measure it is a different question, but what we are seeing right across Scotland is local authorities starting to change the way they make decisions and that will lead to better outcomes.

Senator Nessa Cosgrove

That is great. Is there any particular area that Ms Harris would see where young people themselves have said they noticed a difference?

Ms Juliet Harris

It is how involved they are in decision-making. Whether we are talking about poverty, education or waste management, children and young people are saying they feel more involved in decision-making. There is greater awareness and understanding of children as rights holders. It is not perfect. It is patchy, but the culture is going in the right direction.

Senator Nessa Cosgrove

Is it in implementing policy they would see as directly affecting their lives that there has been a policy change?

Ms Juliet Harris

Implementing policy but also in terms of practice. It is at all levels which is really important in terms of children's direct experiences, as well as the way policy is formulated.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Participation is also really fun. Getting decision makers in the room with children who are directly affected delivers better outcomes but it is also just a real joy watching our members of the parliament unanimously pass the conventions. Even members from parties who historically do not have a strong record on human rights got behind it because they saw the impact in their constituencies. That opportunity for decision makers as human rights guarantors to actually sit down on the floor, play with the Lego and have those conversations about how housing is impacting children's lives, with children, really gives a richness, but it is also just a real joy to be part of. That is valuable too.

An Cathaoirleach

We can agree with that after the sessions we have had with children on our topics.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank the witnesses for being here. I watched the first part of the meeting online so I have heard the contributions so far. As the Chair alluded to, we have had that experience with young people coming in here to speak about social media. We got a flavour of that. We have also seen young people lead on climate action and climate change out on the streets. My first question is to all three witnesses because each of their insights will be important. What would they suggest our next steps should be on our pathway to making this a reality and putting this into Irish law? Obviously, young people have to be part of that, and they have all said that, but what should our next steps be? What would they suggest for that based on their experience?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Draft the law. That is what we did. It was based on a decade of work. As soon as the government made that commitment, it said it would take a long time to do it but we said it would not. We got an expert group together, including Ursula Kilkelly, Laura Lundy, Simon Hoffman from Wales who had been involved in the Welsh measure and others, and we drafted our own Bill in a matter of weeks. Then, along with the chair of the UN committee, thousands of children marched down the Royal Mile and presented this to our deputy first minister. They said it was not this hard and that it should just legislate. We changed the draft a lot during the process but this is a legislative exercise. That is the really important bit. The policy implementation stuff goes alongside it but the sooner you have a draft Bill to work with the better.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

Does anyone else have anything to add?

Ms Juliet Harris

I agree with Mr. Adamson about the importance of drafting the law and then working with babies, children and young people to look at that law to make sure it covers all the different scenarios where their rights might be at risk. That was essential for us in honing and developing the UNCRC Bill in Scotland. A particular example was around childcare. When we did some work with parents and babies, they were saying their childcare was privately delivered, or by the council or an NGO. It made us realise that the law as we had drafted it would only protect the rights of those babies who were in local authority childcare. We amended the Bill as it was going through parliament to make sure it applied to all children who were in receipt of public services, regardless of whether they are in private, NGO or government public services. That process of drafting the law but then real in-depth engagement, testing it against particular cases and particular areas where children's rights might be at risk, allows you to develop a stronger and bespoke Bill that would work for Ireland like ours works for Scotland.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I will also add on the next steps, as has already been said, there is the involvement of the children and young people. It is also about assessing the compatibility of the CRC with Irish law and identifying areas that need work. Doing the work to understand what the convention articles actually mean in the Irish context would be very valuable before you get to the stage of incorporation because then much of the work has already been done.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank all the witnesses for that. Regarding the court cases and the idea of children bringing court cases, I presume that would be a fear for government in countries all over the world. We have had a number of high-profile cases here with parents of children with additional needs unable to access services and their assessment of need to then go on to receive occupational therapy, speech and language or whatever other services they may need. They have gone to court to seek those rights to be vindicated for their children to get the services they need. That has received a lot of coverage when it happens. Is that something that is a real fear for governments? Is it something the witnesses would say would be, for want of a better word, putting governments off moving on this quicker?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

We dealt with it pretty quickly in Scotland. In international evidence we do not see a big spike in litigation. There is some strategic litigation. Aoife Nolan, who is a newly elected Irish member to the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child, led a big international project on advancing children's rights and strategic litigation. You do see strategic litigation in terms of looking to change things, but you do not see a big spike generally. We have not see that in Scotland, particularly in relation to disabled children accessing services. Our specialist tribunal that deals with that in Scotland is probably one of the best exemplars of really good participative work with children.

However, it is the way in which the rights are framed. Economic, social and cultural rights are framed to use available resources to the maximum extent possible. We know that this positive investment in supporting families in getting those services is essential and saves money, but there has not been any huge risk about expanding Bills in and around services. That has not been the experience. It is not a fear that our government or local authorities expressed hugely. There were questions asked, obviously. The idea is that rights-based decision-making is going to save money because you get the decision right first time and do not have to fund very expensive crisis services.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

Would Ms Harris or Professor Thorburn Stern like to add anything?

Ms Juliet Harris

This was a concern that was raised by governments but when our government was talking to governments from other countries, the experience of Norway was that it does not necessarily mean more court cases at all. What it does mean is where cases have been brought and where cases are going to be brought, then the UNCRC is used within those cases to produce better decision-making in the court processes and in the outcomes. Often, these cases might be brought anyway under different laws, but then the UNCRC is there to interpret and ensure a children's human rights approach is embedded into that decision. It really does help to change the culture of the courts and the child-focused culture of the courts. Again, we are not there yet in Scotland but that was certainly the evidence we heard from Norway.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I echo Ms Harris on that. There were concerns about an increase in litigation but that has not happened. We expected more court cases than we have seen so far but in the cases that appear, the CRC is much more present after incorporation than it was before.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

Okay. I thank all the witnesses.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. I will start with Mr. Adamson. First of all, the answer is to legislate as soon as possible. We can have compatibility checks and all the rest of it but let us just get this under way. Everything, from impact assessments to everything else, as well as putting the framework together, can be done relatively simply. We can talk about long-term savings on the basis of doing better things to get better results.

There was mention earlier of a tribunal in the context of disability issues.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Yes. We have a tribunal that looks at decisions on education placements and other services.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Is that a fairly fast operation? I assume this existed long before the UNCRC.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Yes. It is reasonably long-standing but it is a specialist court that was set up because the traditional courts were not very good at it.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I would imagine not. My fear with this and whatever else is not so much about the UNCRC as about Irish courts. We probably have a history of being litigious anyway and possibly more so than Scotland or Sweden. The fact is we push everything, such as issues around whether somebody has capacity, through the courts and there is a logjam. It is a terrible idea. I am really into the idea of proper, specialist courts. Then you can vindicate children's rights easily and quickly and you do not involve people in the disaster of long-term headbutting with the State. This is a State that at times has fought these issues too much.

The witnesses have done a decent job of selling, in the sense that everything I wrote down as a possible obstacle has been answered. Well done to all. I have a couple of other questions. I think it was Ms Harris who mentioned the Welsh measure. What exactly is that? From the way she said it, it sounded like you take into account but you do not necessarily have to act. I am assuming what we are talking about in both Scotland and Sweden is that you have to act. Is it the Welsh half-measure then?

Ms Juliet Harris

I have checked the date and it was actually 2011. The Welsh measure has been a really important way of embedding children's rights across Wales. The fact it was introduced in 2011 means it was quite pioneering. At that point Wales was the first jurisdiction within the UK to introduce something quite so all-encompassing for the UNCRC. However, it is very much based on a "due regard" duty, which means you have to embed children's rights into decision-making but the end result itself does not have to comply with children's rights. There was a court case, I think from last summer, where parents challenged the Welsh Government over the removal of the holiday school meals provision on the grounds the government had not considered children's rights in deciding to remove the provision of free school meals during the holidays. That was challenged through the courts. The courts agreed the Welsh Government had not taken account of children's rights when it made that decision so it had to go back and look at that decision and do a child rights impact assessment. However, at the end of that the government said it still did not have enough money to provide school meals in the summer holidays, so even though it had considered children's rights, it was still going to remove the free school meals provision over the summer. Thus it complied with the court judgment by thinking about children's rights but the end decision still did not comply.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

The government did not have to act but the even more important issue was it said it did not have the money. I get that money is about choices, but an awful lot of this will fall down at times due to resources. That could be the people in place to deliver the service or the money being put aside. Mr. Adamson spoke about saving money and that is the thing we always speak about. We could talk about the criminal justice system and how it could be a nice facility, a more up-to-date facility and a more suitable facility for children, but it is still detention and it means there has been an element of failure. It means those early interventions did not happen or did not happen early enough and we let chaos reign, as it does in communities, particular families and whatever else. I would like to see the UNCRC be part of us having a real conversation about the needs that are out there, including the complex cases, especially in deprived working-class communities. We are too slow with the interventions that can save family units, or in some cases we need to be nuclear a lot quicker in properly vindicating the rights of children. If we do not do that, we will be dealing cases. I am thinking of a case that was in the news today. It is about young people who have been driving the wrong way up motorways. We have had some absolutely brutal tragedies. Obviously you have to deal with that from a criminal point of view but the failure was that we had not intervened sufficiently, where we had intervened with some of these kids and their families, to bring about a different outcome.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

As others have said, incorporation is the starting point. It gives a framework to have those discussions. It does not solve poverty or build houses but it creates a model for a state to demonstrate how it has used all available resources so-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

So we are checklisting at least.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Yes, to actually go through the explanation. You have to show your reasoning and be held accountable for that.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Have there been any instances that have led a state to look at its system and decide to do something fundamentally better?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

There are some of the examples that Ms Harris has already mentioned. Waste management was a really interesting one. We have seen transport changes and stuff in and around-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Yes, but what about early intervention and dealing with families, even those who are in danger of being groomed or involving themselves in criminality, and moving them away from it? Have we seen the UNCRC lead to proper resourcing in the correct places?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

We have seen it starting to leverage but it is probably still too early to say it was just because of incorporation, as opposed to a kind of general trend. Like Ireland, pre-incorporation we had other legislation in place in terms of things like housing, some of which went further than the UNCRC. One of the beauties of the UNCRC is it allows for that. It says if your domestic legislation is stronger than the requirements of the convention, then the higher standard applies and so there is-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

If there is not enough of a supply of housing, it will not matter and that is the issue here as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. We will go for a second round after this. Given we have fewer members in the room than usual, we will do seven minutes each if that is okay.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Seven and a half minutes.

An Cathaoirleach

Seven minutes and whatever Deputy Ó Murchú can push.

It falls to me now. I am going to start on restraint and seclusion in schools. In Ireland we are looking closely at the treatment of children with additional needs in educational settings. There is going to be a TV show on Monday we will all be watching, I think eagerly. Mr. Adamson cited the Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Act 2026 as an example of incorporation changing the framing of an issue. I can broaden the question out to everybody and ask what practical differences it makes when restraint is viewed as a question of dignity, rights and equality rather than behaviour management alone. In Ireland there is an argument about how seclusion has been used and it is seen as a safety issue. It is the same with restraint. Sometimes it can be a lack of resources or expertise. Has the UNCRC and that rights-based approach changed anything in practice? Anyone can speak to that.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Even the whole seven minutes would not do this justice. When I was children's commissioner, I used my statutory powers of investigation on exactly this issue of restraint and seclusion in schools because we had the same problems Ireland does. The report I did to parliament recommended a number of changes to training, support, monitoring and taking a rights-based approach and understanding particularly that we are talking about children who are communicating distress and that this is a communication exercise. It is about how we ensure we leverage enough support and training so these children can be understood in communicating their distress, rather than restrained or secluded.

The final part of that, the one recommendation that took a bit longer to come in, was the legislation colloquially known as Calum's Law after Calum Morrison, who as a child was subjected to significant harm through restraint and seclusion. His mother, Beth Morrison, was one of the big campaigners. She had a petition in Parliament for more than a decade before I became commissioner and undertook the investigation. On that change in terms of the report to Parliament, the legal element of that was pre-incorporation but the fact that I used legal powers really engaged local authorities and those providing services and empowered them to say that meant training and support because they knew this was wrong and not what they wanted to be doing.

An Cathaoirleach

By legal powers, is Mr. Adamson saying he used the fact the UNCRC was incorporated as a legal backbone to drive it forward? In his answer, and this is where the others might come in again, we spoke about the Welsh law and school meals over the summer. Money was the issue. In this case, when it comes down to money for resources, or in the case of Ireland where sometimes there is a lack of behavioural specialists or psychologists, how is that working out in reality in Scotland or Sweden?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

While the investigation we did was pre-incorporation, we leaned very heavily on the UNCRC. One of the interesting things is that as soon as the Government actually made that commitment, we started seeing changes before the legislation came in, once people knew it was coming. Interestingly, when we had the slight hiatus from the Supreme Court in respect of the constitutional decision, it actually dropped off again when people thought it might not come in. You start to see change then on foot of the fact that it is going to come in but I used my statutory powers as commissioner to effect those changes based on rights. The really important thing is we had really good buy-in from local authorities because they knew what was happening was wrong but just felt bogged down in bureaucracy. This actually gave them the power to say they needed to invest in this. We have seen quite significant changes. They are still happening but again, we still have a lot of restraint and seclusion. As the legislation is focused just on educational settings, we are doing broader work in and around other settings as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Unless either Professor Thorburn Stern or Ms Harris want to come in on that topic, I will move to my next question. It is around the child rights and well-being impact assessments, which all the witnesses have referenced. What distinguishes a meaningful impact assessment from a box-ticking exercise? If they could come in on that, that would be great. How concerned are they that - and Sweden is further along in its incorporation than Scotland - over time it does not become formulaic, repetitive and box-ticking? We will go to Professor Thorburn Stern first, then Ms Harris, and then Mr. Adamson.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Child rights impact assessments are a very important tool, when it comes to both drafting and implementing legislation. If we look at the drafting of legislation, there has been an element of box-ticking to some extent. During the past few years, with Sweden's new policies on migration, for example, there have been child rights impact assessments made when changes have been made to, for example, the Aliens Act. These have resulted more in concluding that while some of the proposed provisions might not be perfectly in accordance with the best interests of the child, for example, there are still other interests that are accorded more weight. However, those are very specific examples. In general, the child rights impact assessments are valuable when they are done properly. The core issue is of course for them to be done properly with proper and detailed guidelines on how they are to be carried out. It is not all about a requirement of doing a child rights impact assessment, it is how it is done.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor Thorburn Stern. We will go briefly to Ms. Harris and then to Mr. Adamson.

Ms Juliet Harris

Over time, child rights impact assessments get better, not worse, when decision-makers see that their decisions are better as a result of doing them. Importantly, in Scotland, it is not just a statutory duty on Scottish ministers to conduct child rights impact assessments as there is also a commitment through the children's scheme to evaluate the impact of those assessments. The Scottish Alliance for Children's Rights does an annual review of Scottish Government impact assessments and we make recommendations to the Government as to what works but also how they can be improved. That ongoing review and evaluation of impact assessments is absolutely key to ensuring they grow, improve and are far more than a box-ticking exercise but are recognised by decision-makers as a way of improving their decision-making and pre-empting any potential breaches of children's rights, which might cause issues further downstream.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

I am a late convert to impact assessment. Some of the early work we did on them was too bureaucratic and did not work but the European Network of Ombudspersons for Children, ENOC, which the Ombudsman for Children's Office in Ireland is a part of, did a really wonderful project a few years ago, which Scotland led. It developed a framework for impact assessments, which is now being rolled out across Europe. There are points Ms Harris has already made regarding the initial scoping and things like that but Ireland has already got that. I assisted the Irish Government by doing impact assessments for well-being checks earlier this year, using the Irish model, which is built on the ENOC model. Ireland has already got the tools.

The key thing is making it meaningful and useful. It should not be a bureaucratic exercise but doing it properly really empowers a government to make effective and legitimate decisions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Adamson. It is good to hear we already have a tool. We will start the second round. Does everybody want to come in? Yes. Okay. We will start with Senator Murphy O’Mahony, and we will do seven minutes in the second round.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

My apologies, I am in and out; t is just one of those days. What evidence has Mr. Adamson seen that indicates incorporation has changed the culture of public bodies and Government decision-making in Scotland?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Together, and I am sure Ms Harris will be able to come in here, has done really great work in terms of mapping this out. The Government-funded improvement service in Scotland has a database of what is happening across the country. We have examples from Dumfries and Galloway Council and the NHS. They have action plans based around working with 700 children. Argyll and Bute has really good examples. East Lothian has a really good example of a cross-local authority task force focused on children's rights, which brings transport and other areas which have not traditionally been seen as specifically children's rights, together. The Highland Council, as Ms Harris already mentioned, is doing fantastic work in and around participation. It is happening everywhere and it is really great to see. The improvement service is doing good work in terms of actually monitoring and evaluating that, and Ms Harris has already mentioned the work Together is doing in looking at impact assessment and use. We are building up a really strong body of evidence. We see from conversations the confidence that people have talking about rights and getting over this fear that there is a conflict between parents' rights and children's rights, or that children's rights are going to impose unmeetable demands on service delivery. It is that confidence that is most apparent. People are confident in using rights and the tools to deliver outcomes. In terms of measuring those outcomes, that will take a bit longer but there is work ongoing.

Ghlac an Teachta Aisling Dempsey an Chathaoir.

Deputy Aisling Dempsey took the Chair.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

How effective have child rights impact assessments been in influencing Government and public authority decisions since incorporation?

Ms Juliet Harris

It is going in the right direction; I would not say it is perfect. What we have really seen is that the best child rights impact assessments begin early in the decision-making process, that is, early enough to influence the policy, but they are really articulate on rights reasoning. They use disaggregated data and are written in a way that children and young people can understand and they also have got monitoring in them. I can share with the committee after the meeting some work we have done on monitoring the child rights impact assessments. Importantly, I can share our state of children's rights report from this year. It contains 59 different case studies of where the UNCRC Act has made a difference, changed decision-making or introduced new ways of working. A number of those cover the use of child rights impact assessments and, more broadly, what it looks like to embed a children's human rights approach.

Importantly, those case studies in our state of children's rights report include the perspectives of children, young people, and their parents. It is not just us policy wonks or the Government talking about the impact; it is actually direct quotes from children and young people about the difference that the new, changing culture is having on their experiences of their rights.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

Professor Thorburn Stern, what were the biggest implementation challenges faced by Swedish courts and public bodies after incorporation and how could we avoid similar difficulties here?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

One of the main obstacles was translating the way in which the convention is worded into the Swedish context, into the Swedish legal culture and to make it work and make it into a tool that adjudicators understand and are comfortable with working. One of the keys to doing that is the training on what the convention means, what effect it has in domestic law and what effect it has in practice for someone working with it who is not a trained lawyer, for example. That has been one of the most important obstacles so far, but it is also something that is gradually changing with training and with the increased status of children's rights and the changes in culture and understanding the rights-based perspective.

Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony

I thank the witnesses for giving up their time to the committee. Their level of expertise is fantastic.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I want to follow on from something Mr. Adamson mentioned previously. He said that local authority budgets have to prove that they are prioritising children's rights. Will he give examples of how this has taken place? What are the impacts being seen in Scotland at the moment in relation to that?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

We have examples of councils having the discussion in the open. In terms of being able to point to specific examples where there have been policy changes or additional investment that could be directly linked to incorporation, we probably do not have that level of analysis at this stage. However, we are seeing the discussion happening, particularly in relation to economic, social, and cultural rights. The fact that they are justiciable suddenly gets the budget holders and the lawyers paying attention, and that has been really useful. Traditionally, we were working against what we were required to do and what we were measured against. The justiciability of economic, social, and cultural rights in the UNCRC is allowing us to then leverage the people who often might be the barriers in terms of those who control spending or are worried about compliance. It suddenly brings them into the room. What we are seeing is a broad culture change but in terms of there being evidence of the improvements in Scotland, I cannot give a specific example. Ms Harris might be able to.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I appreciate that. We know that a sizeable budget helps with cultural change, if it is allocated and if there is commitment there. How has what would be required for the full implementation around housing and child homelessness been measured? Does Mr. Adamson have any examples of what local authorities are working on that they can bring to the Government?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

One of the challenges is in terms of the limitations on rights. The requirement is to ensure an adequate standard of living, and that includes the right to appropriate housing, a safe, warm house, warm meals, nutrition and all of that stuff. In terms of the requirement to have those minimum core obligations and then the progressive realisation of rights, one of the things we see from the South African jurisprudence - I have got probably the longest history on this - is that it does not build houses but it requires the house building scheme to be put in place and start to progressively realise that right. It does not create instant results. It creates a framework for that. Shelter has been doing some really good work in Scotland, specifically on housing on this. I would like to see a little bit more litigation. That is a question to ask in terms of our legal community. We have got that one case but we have not seen more broad litigation. Housing is very justiciable and I am surprised we have not seen more cases to try to leverage this. This may be because people feel that progress is being made, but I have some question marks as to why we are not doing more to leverage that on housing in particular.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

Mr. Adamson also mentioned welfare-based protection for children. What impact has this had on the outcomes for children currently in Scotland?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

For children in conflict with the law or children needing care and protection, Scotland has had a long-standing history of children's hearings. We have had a welfare-based approach to children in conflict with the law for a very long time. Incorporation has really focused minds on some of the worst issues, such as children being in young offenders institutions in a prison-run system. Moving that into a welfare system means we are saving lives, because children were dying in our prison system. Now they are receiving the safety and support of a welfare-based system. It is saving lives at the most extreme end. It is as tangible as that. More broadly, welfare-based investment, preventative spend and that rights-based approach deliver better outcomes and reduce the economic impact of crisis services.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

Yes, and that short-, medium- and long-term piece. I thank Mr. Adamson for that. That opens this up to the three witnesses. What key actions should be prioritised to ensure these rights are given the emphasis they need in incorporation of the UNCRC into Irish law? Following on from that, what is good practice to ensure this happens, particularly relating to our local authorities? Does Ms Harris want to come in first on this?

Ms Juliet Harris

In terms of local authorities, Mr. Adamson has already mentioned the work of the improvement service in Scotland. This has been key to working with local authorities to embed a children's human rights approach. I would be happy to share with the committee afterwards some of the work it has done. It has tackled some of the tricky conversations that have been brought up today, such as how we do children's rights budgeting and how we do child rights impact assessments in a way that realises children's rights rather that being a bureaucratic exercise. How do we involve children and young people in decision making without overconsulting children and young people? Focusing on these processes is the best way of ensuring good practice across local authorities.

I have mentioned my organisation's state of children's rights report with all the case studies in it, and the Deputy asked Mr. Adamson about child rights budgeting. In the report there are some really good examples at a local authority level. Aberdeen is working with the Aberdeen Youth Movement on its budgets. We can draw really widely on case studies of child rights impact assessments, budgeting and participation, and these are the best practice to embed a children's rights culture in local authorities.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I thank Ms Harris. Does Mr. Adamson want to come in next?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Ms Harris has probably covered it. There is one more example on budgets that I like. It is not from Scotland but from Western Cape in South Africa. The children's commissioner there created a system where children became child budget monitors. They got training from auditors and then worked with the Western Cape Government on its budget and did a full budget analysis, which was a really beautiful piece of work and which I have been promoting in Scotland as well. As Ms Harris said, there are some really good examples of this in practice in the state of children's rights report.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I ask Professor Thorburn Stern to come in on that.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

To add to what has already been said, it is really important to involve children in these processes, particularly children from minorities and those who are in vulnerable situations. These are the children who would benefit the most from being seen as rights holders, but their voices are often not heard as much as they should be. The incorporation of the convention is one way of facilitating and emphasising the need to do so.

Deputy John Connolly

The discussion is really interesting. I detect a degree of commentary that this is not a panacea. Some of what has been implemented in Scotland since it incorporated the convention into legislation it was possibly en route to in any case. In Sweden's case, Professor Thorburn Stern said that "the work is not finished once an incorporation law has entered into force". It leads me to wonder, beyond incorporation of the convention, what should national legislators be doing? We are all cognisant of the constraints and limits of the Exchequer. How can we make sure the gaps that the convention maybe does not cover are covered by national legislators?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

The Deputy is absolutely right that incorporation is not a panacea. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child sets out a number of general measures of implementation, which include things like having an ombudsman, impact assessment and budgeting as well as incorporation. There is this requirement to legislate. It is not a panacea, but what it does is give you the tools. Again, I will admit - I realise this is on the record - that my initial approach to incorporation was just to focus on the incorporation bit, and just have full and direct incorporation but not include all the measures of implementation. It was Ms Harris and colleagues together who pushed on the implementation part of our act, which is key, where it lists all those things we have discussed about having a scheme, participatory rights and access to justice. You need to do all that stuff as well. You are already under an obligation to do that, but it all comes together.

What full and direct incorporation does is bring everything into clear focus. As the rights are interdependent and interrelated, it allows you to have this strong framework and you can then draw on international examples, whereas the indirect route to incorporation, where there are different pieces of legislation, ends up being quite siloed. If you are talking about housing, for example, that has an impact on health, education and socialisation. All of that has an impact on children's development, so if you are looking at it just as a housing issue, you miss a lot of all those other connections. It is that interrelated focus and then things like rights-based budgeting. As you are thinking about it in an holistic way, you make big decisions that cut across those silos.

Deputy John Connolly

May I just make an observation before Professor Thorburn Stern comes in? Maybe I am wrong on this, but I am concluding, going back to that point, that because this has been incorporated only into ordinary law in Sweden, it is not having the same impact it is having in Scotland.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I have not made a comparison between Sweden and Scotland so I am not really equipped to expand on that question. The fact that the convention has the status of ordinary law in the Swedish context is a missed opportunity to emphasise the weight to be accorded to children's rights. I think it was a mistake, to be honest. The CRC should have been given the same status as the European Convention on Human Rights, but politically that was not possible for a number of reasons. What incorporation does, regardless of its place in the national legal hierarchy, is turn an international obligation into something much more tangible, into domestic law which is to be implemented and used every day. It pulls it from the very high, abstract level down to the very practical level. That is one of the great wins of incorporation, which is something we have seen in Sweden. In schools, for example, most children are very well aware of the fact that there is an international treaty, a law, establishing their rights, not only as something they are to be educated about but also something that applies to them and that they can use as a tool to forward their rights.

Ghlac an Teachta Keira Keogh an Chathaoir arís.

Deputy Keira Keogh resumed the Chair.

Deputy John Connolly

I have two direct questions to Ms Harris before we conclude. On the last point Professor Thorburn Stern made about children being aware of and knowledgeable about this, Ms Harris has noted that children were involved at every stage of the campaign for incorporation. Was there a particular movement that organised that or was it just a natural thing in that it was being taught in schools and children became aware of it?

Ms Juliet Harris

There was definitely a movement in Scotland. While we do have Rights Respecting Schools from UNICEF in Scotland, the campaign for incorporation was very much led by the Scottish Youth Parliament and the Children's Parliament. The Scottish Youth Parliament had a year-long campaign, Right Here, Right Now, which was all about incorporating the UNCRC into law. The work of the youth parliament really helped to raise awareness and understanding of the value of incorporation across other youth work arenas, that is, among wider groups of children and young people. By the time the Bill came to parliament, we had children giving evidence to the committees who had been in conflict with the law, children with care experience, children who had experienced homelessness and young carers. This very much goes back to Professor Thorburn Stern's point about the importance of hearing from those children whose rights are most at risk. It was the leadership of the Scottish Youth Parliament, supported by the children's commissioner and civil society, that helped to broaden the movement to other groups of children and young people, and that itself became impossible for parliament to ignore.

Deputy John Connolly

I am intrigued by the fact that Ms Harris said, "Families and frontline staff are using the Act to challenge decisions without going to court." What is the mechanism they use?

Ms Juliet Harris

Talking about children's rights, we call this using the law but basically it is saying, "We know that the UNCRC has been incorporated into law, we know that this decision should have taken account of children's rights, and it has not, so do something about it." There is a good example in our state of children's rights report where a little girl had a visit to her dad. Her dad was in prison and she had her visit taken away because her dad had used drugs in prison. It was meant to be a punishment for him but actually it punished her far more because she was so excited about the visit. The prison visitor manager said that this was not compatible with her rights and that she had the right to know her father. The girl set up a big display in that prison to say it is a child's right to know both parents. In that way she used the law by raising awareness of children's rights and the impact of decisions on children's rights. That has now been mainstreamed across 13 other visitor centres in Scotland. That did not go to the courts. It was just a professional recognising of a breach of a little girl's rights, raising awareness of the impact it had on her and her ability to have a loving relationship with her father, and then making that strategic change across the visitor centres that then benefits all children who have a parent in prison.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That is very specific use of the legislation to vindicate a right, and that is really good to see. In relation to what Ms Harris said about the children's assembly or parliament and children's involvement in the campaign, my fear with some of that is that occasionally it is a very specific set of children. I am just wondering how open it is. I can see that Mr. Adamson is nodding - not in agreement, I might add. We have seen it before. We have seen where it has been very good and is very open. I am talking about kids from different socio-economic backgrounds, never mind anything else, because in an awful lot of cases, both when you are talking about these things in relation to children and even with adults, it can be very middle class and is not necessarily representative. I was just curious about that.

Ms Juliet Harris

That is definitely a fear that some people have but it is not realised in reality. The Scottish Youth Parliament is very diverse. Its members are elected by their peers on the same basis as the Scottish Parliament, but there are also specific special interest MSPs who come from a range of different backgrounds, again through youth work organisations, who work with those children who are most at risk. I think-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Ms Harris said that there had been positive youth worker engagement. That is a different kettle of fish. It is good and commendable.

Ms Juliet Harris

Yes, completely. When the parliament took evidence from children and young people, it made a specific effort to engage with the Children and Young People's Centre for Justice, the Scottish young carers organisation and the Scottish Commission for People with Learning Disabilities to make sure that diverse evidence from a range of children whose rights were at risk was presented and heard in the parliament. That is essential. It takes the empowerment of youth work organisations and of children and young people to make sure we always hear from the children whose rights are most at risk, because if the changes are made to support these children, it benefits everyone.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

To follow on from Ms Harris's important point, incorporation helps all children, but it has the biggest impact on those whose rights are most at risk. Scotland can be proud of the fact that, through this, we have worked with non-verbal children - those with restraint seclusion - and children with learning disabilities. We also did a lot of work on poverty, which is the biggest human rights issue in Scotland. The UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights came and sat on the floor in a school in Glasgow doing some painting with primary school children about their community. Those things are at the heart of how we do things. Ireland has a strong commitment as well.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Mr. Adamson led me on. I was going to talk about the criminal justice system, education and the particular issues. At times, we have all seen children with disabilities able to flourish in particular schools. In other schools, it probably would not have happened. It can depend on training and resourcing. It can also depend on teachers, SNAs and principals. It is about ensuring that we get the base scenario. I am particularly talking about neurodiverse children and emotional regulation. Generally, if a strategy can be found with them and their families, we can get to a better place and do not have some of the chaotic circumstances that arise in families. I can see that the UNCRC would play its part in that.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

My current role is chief executive of the Scottish Commission for People with Learning Disabilities and ensuring that their voices are part of decision making is a big part of our work.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I will use a mad analogy. I always use the example of mental health. We have come from a world where we did not have a sufficient human rights ethos. Once upon a time, we put people in institutions and it did not take much to get them in, but it took a lot to get them out and that was wrong. However, I have seen a lot of cases in recent times where people have mental health issues that cannot be addressed because there is too much acceptance of their capacity to make a decision. Guidelines, legislation and issues around resourcing also have an impact, but we want something that is fit for purpose. I am using it as an analogy rather than asking a question about it. Have the witnesses seen such instances relating to the UNCRC? No. That definitely answers that.

I cannot get away from it. As regards criminal justice and the welfare system, the witnesses have seen the UNCRC work to produce better outcomes for children. It would have been better to do something ten or 15 years earlier, but the witnesses have seen savings from that point of view and they have probably seen a reduction in recidivism.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

I am not sure if that has been measured. However, before incorporation, that was one of the things Scotland indirectly incorporated. The CRC was a big part of our system for dealing with children in conflict with the law, which is combined with children in need of care and protection. I was a member of the children's hearing for 13 years and we saw every day the impact of a welfare-based approach rather than a justice approach on outcomes for children, families and communities.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Mr. Adamson has sold that well. It is something we need to employ here to a greater level, in everything from care right through to the criminal justice system and early interventions.

In Ireland, when we talk about Sweden and Scandinavia, everyone thinks they are much better at everything from childcare to being more progressive in criminal justice, welfare and so on. My understanding is that Sweden had a serious financial crash in the 1990s and that some of the services that were provided historically were no longer provided. I was given the examples of dental care and other services, which would only have been available through the state. I am wondering about some of the services that have not been available to children. Have their rights been vindicated by getting some of those services back in latter years, through the UNCRC?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

I am not an expert on that topic. However, those services have been made much more available in latter years. I cannot with any certainty say it is because of incorporation, but it is part of implementing children's right to health, which means allocating budgets and other resources to improving access to health services, for example.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Has there been better budgeting from a child protection and welfare point of view on the basis of the UNCRC?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Yes, but it is not only because of incorporation. It is because of ratification in the 1990s. The children's rights perspective has been present in Swedish legislation for a long time. The point of incorporation was that it was not enough. Incorporation was seen as a tool to increase the impact and further strengthen children's firm position as rights holders. It is a ladder and incorporation helps a country to climb the steps.

An Cathaoirleach

I have an ambitious four questions, but we will see how we get on. Members can consider whether they have any burning questions to ask at the end.

Scotland now has a welfare based secure unit and has closed the correctional institution, I picked that up correctly. Mr. Adamson mentioned that there were a lot of deaths by suicide in the prison system for young offenders. Were the closures led by the suicides or by the UNCRC? I am thinking about it, because in Ireland, we have Oberstown, which takes a twin-track approach. It is a detention campus, but it is supposed to have the therapeutic side as well. It has made its way into the news regularly recently and the committee will be visiting it soon. I am wondering about the pathway to the changes Scotland made and whether they were only for convicted young offenders or also proactive. We have a special care system that is supposed to be proactive where, although they have not been convicted, children are still under lock and in care, perhaps to protect them and others.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

I am a big fan of Oberstown. Professor Kilkelly will be before the committee next week and she is one of the experts. My colleague, Koulla Yiasouma, the former children's commissioner in Northern Ireland, is now chair of the board of Oberstown. They do wonderful work.

Scotland has a number of secure residential units in the welfare system that have existed for a long time. Children who go into our children's hearing system on criminal justice grounds can end up in those secure units for their care and protection. Children who go through the adult criminal justice system can also go into those welfare-based protection systems. What changed was that the young offenders institute previously allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to be detained in the justice system and now those children can no longer be there. There have been a significant number of deaths by suicide, including some young adults, but some were also children and that galvanised the political will to make this change, which many of us had been campaigning for for a long time. However, it was the tragic deaths by suicide that galvanised the political will to make the change. We extended the ability of all children to go into the children's hearing system and prohibited 16- and 17-year-olds being detained in the young offenders institute. It still exists, but only for young adults.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there any examples of the UNCRC making a difference for young offenders in Sweden? I have put Professor Thorburn Stern on the spot.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Yes, in the approach to young offenders, there definitely are.

I do not know whether the Cathaoirleach is aware that Sweden just recently implemented a new Act, according to which the age of criminal responsibility for certain crimes has been lowered to 14, which means that certain categories of young offenders can now be put in specialised prison units. I do not know how to translate it but it is an Act that is limited in time. It will go on for five years and is in response to Sweden's problems with gang crime. It is very controversial and has been very much discussed. From a children's rights perspective, it has been heavily criticised. However, it is also a very particular case. In general, the CRC has had an important impact on how we treat young offenders and what approach is taken with them.

An Cathaoirleach

It might be very beneficial for Ireland to watch how that legislation progresses. Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned the incidents we have been having with youths driving down motorways in the wrong direction and gangs of youths on our streets and it is going to become more of an issue here, so we will be watching Sweden carefully. Ms Harris spoke about being happy to give examples of the changes Together is seeing in the courts and what the rights of the UNCRC mean in practice. Is she willing to talk about some of those examples?

Ms Juliet Harris

Certainly. There have not been many court cases so far, but an important case we had earlier this year, supported by one of our members, was Clan Childlaw, where there were two siblings in care and they both had separate children's hearings. Each of the hearings came up with conflicting contact orders. The younger sister's children's hearing said it was not in her best interests to see her older brother but her elder brother's hearing said it was in his best interests to see her. Their rights were considered separately, not together as a family unit. The big brother actually took a case to court to say he wanted to see his little sister and his rights should be taken into account as well as hers, and that it should be a decision that took into account the best interests of the whole family.

The court looked at a general comment from the UNCRC, namely, general comment 14, which is about the best interests of the child. That is very clear that in decisions involving more than one child, you need to look at all the children in that decision and consider the best interests of every child affected. Ultimately, the court decided that as a family unit for the two siblings, it was in their best interests to be able to see each other and make contact with each other. This will change the way children's hearings look at children's rights in their decision-making in making sure that every hearing looks at the rights of all children in the decision-making process, rather than just one child in isolation. It is a far more holistic way of making sure all children's rights are respected in decision-making.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Harris. Sometimes practical examples are really helpful to hear. I have two more questions and Deputy Ó Murchú definitely has a question. If there is nobody else, will I go ahead?

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Of course.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Ó Murchú is such a gentleman. I will ask my two questions and we can leave it at seven minutes, and I will try not to take that much time.

Our ombudsman is doing great work in including children, I attended a conference on this topic last year with very excited young people and some of their advocates such as the scouts or youth workers and so on. We will be hearing from the ombudsman on this topic on 8 October. Regarding Sweden and Scotland, what lessons can be learnt from the inclusion of children on this journey? If our representatives could do anything differently what should they do because we are still in the process? That is open to anybody from Scotland or Sweden who wants to come in. If we are doing a great job, that is fine too.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

I was always on the record as saying being the children’s commissioner in Scotland was the best job in the world because every single day I got to spend time with children to understand their views. The ombudsman and his team do a great job here. Those roles are really important.

One of the general measures of implementation for the UNCRC is having a Paris Principles compliance ombudsman. Ireland should be really proud of the work the ombudsman does, but that is one person with a small team and a reasonably small budget. Participation has to be everywhere.

Ms Harris has already spoken about the great work the children's parliament and youth parliament did in terms of trying to get that message out. The key thing is to make sure to build in the time for that engagement. Do not delay the legislative process. Get the legislation in and talk about it but the whole way through, and then afterwards as well, have that constant involvement and development. One of the things that was really impressive to see was our parliamentarians’ growing confidence to put themselves outside their comfort zone.

The Lundy model was mentioned earlier and part of that is creating the space for children. Expecting children to come and sit around an intimidating committee room like this is not the best way of organising participation. It can be done, of course, but it is actually about getting out, as I know members do, into the community, and engaging with those whose rights are most at risk. What is important is investing time, going to the places where children are, seeking out those children whose rights are most at risk, doing so on a continual basis and making sure those children have that feedback and feel part of the process. We did a reasonable job in Scotland but I would have done a lot more of it and with a broader range of people as well.

An Cathaoirleach

It really struck me when Mr. Adamson spoke about the children on the ground. Speaking from my own experiences, online safety is a real passion of mine, and I was happy with my efforts to go out to local schools and talk to children but when I reflect on that now, they were at their desks putting their hand up if they had a question. It was a good effort but I probably could have structured it in a different way. The Lundy model is something I will look at.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

It is important to recognise that that starts from birth as well. One of the last things I did as the children's commissioner was to organise a submission to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child regarding its work on the environment. I worked with preschool children on the floor with drawings, and our whole report to the UN was based entirely on the views of preschool children. We had some really interesting discussions around State accountability. I was not saying the Aarhus Convention-----

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Adamson give us a practical example of how he went about that? Did he direct the children to draw something about it?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

My favourite story, and I am aware this is on the record so I am going to be careful of my language, was in a nursery, and the children and I were talking about accountability in relation to the environment, like the Aarhus Convention. We were just sitting on the floor and they were drawing, and I asked what in their community they did not like and what was good. There was a boy who drew a picture of a building with smoke coming out of it, and I asked “what is that?” He said it was a factory and was polluting. I asked “who should do something about that?“ The next picture was the building being knocked down by a wrecking ball.

An Cathaoirleach

This happened in a preschool?

Mr. Bruce Adamson

This happened with children aged four. I asked about the wrecking ball and he said it was the police. The police had come and smashed down the factory because it was polluting. That is an understanding that it is about State obligations and the State's responsibility to think about this. The bit I am going to be careful about is another picture that had a bit of red in it, and I asked "what is that?” He was like, "that is the factory owner.” I am not suggesting he was saying that - capital punishment for environmental crimes did not make part of the recommendation - but it showed the strength of feeling in terms of who is responsible, what is happening that you do not like and who is responsible for doing something about it. I did not recommend to the UN capital punishment for environmental crimes but it was that depth we can get out of a conversation just using drawings and discussion. Children from a very young age have that really nuanced understanding.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Professor Thorburn Stern wish to say anything from the Swedish perspective?

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

As Mr. Adamson has already talked about, it is important to involve children of different ages. Moreover,-participation is not only for children who can speak and express their views. As Mr. Adamson’s example shows, they can do that in different ways. That is really important to take into account, as well as making sure children from different socio-economic backgrounds are included, minorities, etc. I cannot stress that enough. That is extremely important so that the convention, once it is incorporated, feels like something that applies to everyone and not only certain children.

That is one of the key messages.

An Cathaoirleach

The last question is on the need for sustained awareness raising. Are there good examples of that in either country?

Ms Juliet Harris

I think Scotland could be doing more. There has been a great deal of awareness and understanding of the UNCRC. We had UNICEF rights-respecting schools funded across all local authorities. The former children's commissioner, Mr. Adamson, has played a big role in making sure that children's rights are on the agenda for everybody in terms of accountability but also in terms of the rights of children and young people to participate in decision-making.

We do not have a dedicated awareness raising strategy. Wales does, so that is perhaps an example to look at. It is certainly a call from across our membership that there should be more done to raise awareness of the UNCRC. An important element of this is that it needs to be, as per Article 42, among "adults and children alike". A lot of work has been done by the Improvement Service to raise awareness of it across professionals. We have a skills and knowledge framework as well to support professionals to develop their expertise in embedding a children's human rights approach. However, we strongly believe that parents should be supported to understand children's rights from birth. We have been calling for the Scottish Government to include something on children's rights in the baby box that every family gets when they welcome a new baby in Scotland, so that children's rights can be seen as a way of supporting families and supporting the atmosphere of happiness, love and understanding that the UNCRC talks about. We see that obligation as being on national governments and we would like to see them doing a bit more.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I will follow on from where the Chair went earlier. When we talk about early intervention, in Ireland that is Tusla's responsibility, right through from foster care to special care facilities. Once upon a time, we had high-support units, which have been removed, and we now we have a backlog in special care facilities, some of which have their own issues. That is a discussion for another day, however. That is before someone is legally detained. The issue in Ireland is we have a lot of kids who need to go in to somewhere like that. Even if we had more foster carers, they might not be able to deal with these children and the challenging behaviour they have. At times, we were using special emergency accommodation, which was utterly inappropriate, but that has been removed to some degree.

I am interested in improvements in that field that have been made in Scotland and Sweden. I get that it is not a case of throwing a bit of UNCRC magic dust at a ramshackle system and then everything works perfectly. It is probably more that the UNCRC puts on the agenda the need for a children's rights-based approach, which should, therefore, lead to a better framework and the fixing of the issues that exist. Has it improved in the last while? Do Scotland and Sweden have some of the same issues? I assume they have, although they have hardly got rid of poverty, multigenerational trauma and other issues.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

As I said earlier, one of the things Scotland had already done pre-incorporation was we had used the UNCRC as our standard for care and protection in children in conflict with the law. In fact, we went further. We made children's welfare a paramount consideration whereas in the UNCRC it is primary. We had already done a lot of that but we have exactly the same challenges. We do not have enough support for foster-based, community-based care and then real pressure on our residential care. That was what was-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is arriving too late in some cases.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Yes, all of that. Again, we know about all of that - detached youth work, investment in communities, community spaces and hubs, poverty, social security and all of that. We know the consequences of poverty in children's experience in life, so we know the upstream investments and where we need to go. Those things are starting to change but they will take time to flow through. We already had the CRC right at the heart of our approaches to this stuff. Incorporation has not necessarily seen a huge change in legislative terms because we already had those. It was underpinned-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It was already integrated. The ethos was already there anyway.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

What we are seeing in terms of change is the investment and discussions in and around investments that will show results in the future. I probably cannot point to a measurement in the last couple of years, as opposed to an ongoing trend, because we put CRC at the heart of our care and protection system.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Does Ms Harris want to add to that?

Ms Juliet Harris

An important thing to reflect on is the principle of non-regression. We always assume that progress will move in the right direction - forwards - but a real strength of UNCRC incorporation is the fact that it provides a brake. It means things cannot go backwards, or should not go backwards, and that government needs to provide adequate explanation in very limited circumstances if it wants to regress children's rights.

Where we have this legislation in place, and we take it for granted that perhaps progress is going forwards, what UNCRC incorporation does, really importantly, is that if we end up with a future government which is anti-children's rights and is moving backwards, it will be far more difficult for it to undo some of the protections we already have in Scotland than it would be without UNCRC incorporation. Even though progress cannot always be as fast as we want and it is not always as widespread as we want, there is a security in knowing that the UNCRC Act provides that brake to stop things from going backwards if the political mood or the political changes.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

That can happen.

Professor Rebecca Thorburn Stern

Continuing on from what Ms Harris said, the convention is not the highest attainable standard; it is the floor. Incorporating it into domestic law makes that floor visible in a way that it might not have been previously, when it was an abstract international legal instrument. That is one of the great advantages of having incorporation, that it makes it visible in that way and it also prevents future legislation from going below that floor. That applies to all fields actually, but maybe in particular to those where there are very strong competing interests such as when it comes to criminal justice, migration or whatever it might be. The convention as law provides a lower limit.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

A baseline.

Mr. Adamson spoke before about vindicating the rights of those who are non-verbal. Will he give some examples of that? A number of us, including in other committees, have come across some particular issues that families have brought to us.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

The specifics work on restraint in seclusion was probably the most extreme example of that. This is where children were being harmed because the communication of their distress was being interpreted as being disruptive or challenging and they were being physically harmed. We made a really big change in relation to that, up to and including the legislation which was recently passed. Many of those children were non-verbal, had learning disabilities or were neurodivergent. The role of family there is important. Often, it is the parents who know the child best and can really assist with that communication. Communication passports are really useful, as they mean not having to keep explaining how someone likes to communicate. Technology is playing a really important role as well.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I was going to say that there would be varying levels. We have all seen augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, employed where it has fundamentally changed people's lives. It creates communication where there was none. I get that it will be more difficult with others, but it is a right that we need to ensure can be vindicated.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Absolutely. The CRC specifically says that there is extra care and protection for disabled children. Also, the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which is a more modern treaty, probably goes further in terms of disabled children's rights.

One of the things the Scottish Government has committed to is further incorporation of other core treaties, including the UNCRPD. We are working on that at the moment to make sure that is as strong as possible.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Then there is the issue of ensuring that people have access to these resources.

An Cathaoirleach

This is a first. Deputy Ó Murchú is our very enthusiastic member and always has questions. I think this is the first time he has run out of questions.

I thank our witnesses for being gracious with their time this morning and for sharing their experience. I will give them an opportunity to make a closing comment. If you have a closing remark, Mr. Adamson, please go ahead.

Mr. Bruce Adamson

Thank you for the indulgence, Chair. I wanted to touch on some of the technical bits. I am a lawyer by trade so I am really interested in some of the technical bits, which are really important as Ireland goes through this next phase. We went for full and direct incorporation, which brought all the conventions together. That is really important, rather than picking and choosing. We have really broad scope, as Ms Harris mentioned earlier, so it is anyone who is delivering a public function, even if they are privately funded. We had the interpretation section, which allows for the courts and others to look at things like including observations and general comments, bringing that depth and living treaty stuff to life. There is broad scope to take cases with those with sufficient interest and things like the fact that the usual time bar does not apply throughout childhood. The usual restrictions of six months or a year from the incident do not apply during childhood, so you have all of childhood plus that time bar afterwards.

In the context of judgments, there is a requirement for courts to think about the participation of children not just in the case itself but in the remedying, so judges have to consult children on what the most effective remedy would be. There are strike-down powers for the courts for the legislation or declarations of incompatibility for new legislation. There are pre-legislative tools for the Parliament to use, whereby there are statements of compatibility. There is a whole bunch of pre-legislative and legislative tools to make sure that, going forward, Scotland passes good legislation.

There is lots of detail that is really important. As I said earlier, the thing is to get a Bill and then to start working out the detail. There were some things that did not go as far as we would have liked, that we lost out on, and some that are really strong. That is another important part of this discussion - making sure that you have the strongest possible legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

Again, go raibh maith agaibh. Thank you so much for coming.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 11.53 a.m. go dtí 9.30 a.m. Déardaoin, an 1 Deireadh Fómhair 2026.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.53 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 October 2026.

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