Joint Committee on Education and Youth debate -
Thursday, 24 Sep 2026

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Education and Training Requirements for Inclusive Education: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

In advance of today's meeting, we received apologies from Deputies Callaghan and O'Rourke. Everyone is very welcome this morning. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Witnesses within the confines of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any of the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The witnesses are all very welcome. On today's agenda we have inclusive education: education and training requirements for initial teacher education, ITE, and continuous professional development, CPD. I warmly welcome officials from the Teaching Council. We have Ms Phil Fox, acting director; Ms Margaret Hynds O’Flanagan, deputy director governance and strategy; and Ms Bríd Murphy, head of policy and communications. I thank them so much for joining us.

The Higher Education Authority, HEA, declined an invitation to attend as the authority explained that it has no direct role in terms of initial teacher education or continuous professional development for teacher professional learning.

I ask Ms Fox to make an opening statement on behalf of the Teaching Council. She has five minutes. The opening statement will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. Given time constraints, each member will a six-minute slot to ask questions and to give appropriate time for the witness to respond.

I invite Ms Fox to make her opening remarks.

Ms Phil Fox

I am the acting director of the Teaching Council. I am here today with Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan, who is our deputy director, governance and strategy, and Bríd Murphy, who is our head of policy and communications. I thank the committee for inviting us to speak to it today on this important topic. We look forward to assisting the committee.

The issues the committee is examining in relation to inclusion, and the impact on children and families in Ireland, are of the utmost importance. The Teaching Council is the regulator of the teaching profession in Ireland. Our role is to protect the public by regulating and promoting professional standards in teaching. The Teaching Council's role does not include any direct functions, funding or service provision within schools or educational establishments. We operate under the Teaching Council Act 2001 and serve the public interest by ensuring that teachers meet and uphold high standards of competence and conduct. Our activity spans a range of areas, including: setting standards for, and reviewing and accrediting programmes of initial teacher education, ITE; maintaining the register of over 130,000 teachers, including the vetting and re-vetting of teachers; developing and overseeing the Droichead framework for the induction of newly qualified teachers; developing and publishing a code of professional conduct for the teaching profession; considering complaints in relation to registered teachers and holding inquiries where necessary; promoting teachers' professional learning through the Cosán framework and the Féilte bursary scheme and; commissioning research on teachers' professional practice.

Following on from this, our role does not determine the actual model of inclusive education or allocate provision for this within the education system. Our role is to ensure that the professional standards we set for teachers equip them to work in an increasingly diverse and inclusive education system in line with national education policy. I will now briefly outline our work in this area. Ireland has a high-quality, trusted teaching profession. As the regulator of the teaching profession, we set high standards for programmes of initial teacher education and review and accredit programmes in line with these standards. When a person completes an accredited programme of initial teacher education, they are eligible to apply for registration as a primary or post-primary teacher. The standards for primary and post-primary teaching are outlined in Céim: Standards for Initial Teacher Education. The development of Céim was informed by written submissions and extensive consultation with the sector. These programmes develop foundational competencies for teachers which they build upon throughout their teaching career. At the heart of Céim are seven core elements that underpin all aspects of initial teacher education programmes. These core elements are threaded through all aspects of programme design and provision including foundation studies, professional studies and school placement.

Inclusive education is one of the core elements in Céim. Inclusive education supports student teachers to respond to diverse learner needs, remove barriers to participation and learning, and support equitable learning environments. Between 2021 and 2024, we conducted a review and accreditation process for 52 primary and post-primary programmes. All programmes met the standards required for inclusive education in Céim. Existing programmes of primary and post-primary ITE were aligned to the Céim standards from September 2022. The first teachers from Céim aligned professional master of education, PME, programmes graduated in 2024. The first teachers from Céim aligned B.Ed, bachelor of education, programmes graduated in 2026. The impact of these programmes is now beginning to be realised in the system. In addition, from September 2026, all primary and post-primary programmes of initial teacher education will include an immersive special education learning period.

Teacher education does not end with initial qualification. Droichead is the Teaching Council's framework for the professional induction of newly qualified teachers. It includes school-based and additional professional learning activities to address the needs of teachers as they begin their careers. The council promotes teachers' ongoing professional learning in a number of ways. Cosán is the Teaching Council's framework for teachers' learning and has identified inclusive education as a key area for professional learning. The council's Féilte bursary scheme supports collaboration between schools and enhances teachers' professional learning. Inclusive education is a key theme of the bursary, and this is strongly represented in the projects supported.

Finally, Teachers' Professional Journeys: The First Decade, is a national longitudinal research study, jointly funded by the Teaching Council and the Department of Education and Youth. The study aims to understand the personal, educational, professional and systemic influences that shape teachers' careers, practice and development. It follows cohorts of teacher graduates as they move from initial teacher education into induction, early professional learning and more established professional practice.

The council is also cognisant of the recently published UNESCO report, Planning for an Attractive, Competent, Diverse and Sustainable Teaching Profession in Ireland, which contains a specific recommendation in relation to registration and special education, and to the provision of professional learning for special education teachers. The Teaching Council looks forward to engaging with the Department of Education and Youth on these matters. I thank the Chair and committee members. We welcome the opportunity to assist the committee in this important work.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Fox very much. We will go to members' questions now. They will have six minutes each. I often allow an overrun of 20 seconds to 30 seconds but if they hear the sound of me tapping on the glass it means they should wrap it up so we can move on. We might give some extra time at the end. There are always time constraints. If there are any points the witnesses might want to close out and they did not have time we will give them some concluding moments at the end to say those bits. We will start off today with Deputy Peter Roche. He has sé nóiméad.

Deputy Peter Roche

The witnesses are most welcome. I am sure it was an early morning start for them to get here. How and ever, I thank them for being here.

My question relates to CPD, continuing personal development. As we all know it is very demanding for teachers working with complex students, but it is also a very rewarding job. I hear that some of those teachers find it difficult to get an opportunity to do some CPD. The witnesses probably have that knowledge as well or it may be an experience they have heard people discussing. How does the system allow for such instances where a teacher really wants to do some CPD, but the demand on her job on a daily basis is such that the opportunities do not present at the time?

Ms Phil Fox

I thank Deputy Roche very much for his question. The council's role is to regulate professional standards. In terms of CPD, the council proactively developed the Cosán framework. This was developed and published on foot of extensive consultation with stakeholders, including teachers, as far back as 2016. At that time the council identified six key learning areas, one of which was inclusive education. As part of the framework the council then recognised learning processes - how a teacher might learn. In our experience, there is a variety of ways as to how teachers might identify professional learning needs and what mode or method of addressing that need might best suit the learning need they have identified themselves. That could be a mix of perhaps formal and informal learning. It may be perhaps they see that there is a microcredential or a formal qualification that may be mapped, for example, to the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, or they might action research in their own context with their own students and their own circumstances in a more informal type of learning, team teaching, teachers' professional collaborative practice in schools and within and across schools. That is encouraged by the council but the direct provision of that is a matter for other stakeholders, and for the Department and higher education institutions, HEIs, for example. We have an increasingly sophisticated system and provision of teachers' professional learning in the form of Oide, which is the professional learning support service funded through the Department of education. The National Council for Special Education has a particular remit in this area. As to whether or not we have the evidence or the data to say that teachers are finding it difficult to access, one of the challenges that might exist is that there is no national view on the form and nature or the frequency of CPD that is engaged in by teachers. That is not to say there is not data. I am sure those organisations that I mentioned have some data, but there is no national view of what that looks like.

Deputy Peter Roche

Quite recently I attended a school where a number of teachers were involved in the summer programme. We had conversations around what it was that they were doing that day. I thought it was really spectacular in the context of students that were getting a break from home and parents were getting a break also while the students were in school. One of the teachers said to me that they found it interesting that when they were doing their formal training for teaching the special education element was not included as part of the training. I thought that was kind of strange because to me, it is fundamental now because of the way teaching has evolved.

I ask the witnesses for their comments on that because the clock will beep me.

Ms Phil Fox

I am going to hand over to my colleague Ms Murphy, as the head of policy and communications, who will take the Deputy through where the access and inclusion model, AIM, sits in our standards.

Ms Bríd Murphy

I thank the Deputy for his question. Our director referred to the publication of the Céim standards for initial teacher education in 2020 and a revised set of standards published by the council. They include an advanced approach to inclusive education, which is a core element that underpins all aspects of programme design. That is not a scattergun approach; it is an infusion. What that means is there is specific content learning in the areas of inclusive education. It is also connected through pedagogical practice and a portfolio process with every module of school placement as well. What is also important is the development of the beliefs and values, as well as the knowledge and confidence, and the disposition of an inclusive practitioner. We conducted an accreditation process of the existing programmes between 2021 and 2024. All the programmes met those standards.

The first bachelor of education students to have completed those programmes enter the system now. They graduated this year. There are some professional master of education students in the system, but it will take some time to see the impact of those programmes. There is the Droichead induction programme as well, which continues to support teachers as they transition into the profession. We have made enhancements there as well, with professional learning activities that newly qualified teachers do and the support that they get from those, particularly in the area of inclusive education.

Senator Gareth Scahill

I too compliment Ms Fox on her opening statement and the briefing document the witnesses gave us because it is very hard to cover everything they might want in that short space of time. I thank Ms Fox for that.

My questions are very similar to those of Deputy Roche and what he covered. I will start off with the CPD side of things. Ms Fox mentioned that the council's role is as regulator of the teaching profession, protecting the public by regulating and promoting professional standards in teaching. To go back to the CPD and Cosán, it does not stipulate hours or credit requirements and engagement is not linked to renewal of registration. When we talk about inclusive education, and we have had previous witnesses in here talking about how much the learning environment evolves on a year-by-year basis but also on a case-by-case basis, I do not want to say it is naive but there is a not requirement for the registration to have some of those. If there are teachers who have been teaching for 30 or 40 years, surely some of the CPD should be compulsory for Teaching Council membership. I ask the witnesses to comment on that.

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the Senator. The first point that occurs to me is that we are very fortunate in Ireland with the quality of teachers we have. We have an impressive register of 130,000 teachers. It is the largest professional register in the State. Historically, we have had teachers of very high standards and quality. Every teacher on the register has met a very high standard of competence in terms of both qualification and character. The council's legislative basis for gathering information and data on teachers' engagement in CPD for the purposes of their registration or renewal has not commenced. There is a section in the Act under section 33 that speaks to the fact it may form part of the renewal requirement for a teacher to make known their engagement with CPD. That speaks to another section of the Act, section 39, which has not commenced either. There are two parts of our legislation. I am mindful, of course, that the legislation was drafted in a different context and commenced in 2001. Under those two parts of the legislation, the legislative basis to do what the Senator outlined does not exist for us.

Furthermore, in order for us to establish the piece about teachers with 30 or 40 years of teaching experience, the research on that has not been conducted. The evidence of the frequency and engagement in CPD is not available to the system, so information on the extent to which teachers are engaging in CPD and the quantum, volume, nature and form of the CPD - I am mindful of the variety of forms there may be - is not available. It is not clear to us that there is a cohort of teachers who are not engaging in CPD. That data simply does not exist for us.

Senator Gareth Scahill

Maybe the council will have to start looking for that data.

Ms Murphy mentioned Céim and the standards that are included in that. She referred in the briefing document and the opening statement to the 52 programmes that were reviewed, and they all met the inclusive education requirements. The council's role is about setting standards and reviewing accreditations and programmes of initial teaching education. If all the programmes that the council reviewed meet the standard, there is no problem and the system is perfect. Is that the understanding? Is there going to be an individual breakdown? In the opening statement, Ms Fox said that some programmes have two-week placements and other programmes do not. It is a varying standard by which the council is judging them all. Is that correct?

Ms Bríd Murphy

I might just clarify that piece. At undergraduate level, there is a requirement of 30 weeks of school placement, and at postgraduate, 24 weeks. The two weeks might be referring to the enhanced immersive special education learning period, which is a new initiative coming in this month in programmes in addition to what is already completed in the programmes.

I will address the Senator's point about the number of programmes. As of last Monday, there are 57 accredited programmes. We have added more that the council has approved. Initial teacher education is the foundation of competence. It is not the end of the story and that is important to note as well. We have commissioned teachers' professional journeys research, which was referred to earlier, and a finding from one of the most recent reports is that even the best prepared teacher will face challenges in evolving classrooms. That is why we also have the Droichead induction process to help that transition from initial teacher education into the classroom. As the director referred to, a sophisticated model of professional learning in the system is provided by other stakeholders. It is very much to put in that foundational competence so that teachers have that foundation of inclusive pedagogy going into the classroom.

Senator Joe Conway

Cuirim fáilte Uí Cheallaigh roimh na finnéithe go léir. Ms Fox and Ms Murphy mentioned the immersive period in special education for new graduates, which has come in this year. Briefly, will they describe what immersive period entails?

Ms Phil Fox

I will hand over to my colleague Ms Hynds O'Flanagan for this response.

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

The immersive special education learning period, ISELP, as we call it locally although it is not the best name, is a supervised two-week period of placement where a student teacher goes in, and they will always have the back-up of a registered teacher. They are not left on their own. They have some experience of teaching if appropriate, but what they do during that period is learn how the system works, who the actors in the system are, where they get support and how to identify what supports students need and how to follow through with those. It is a broad two-week experience to help them become comfortable working in that environment.

Senator Joe Conway

It happens during their student period, before they graduate. Is that correct?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

Yes. It is ideally in the second half, but certainly after they have taken formal study.

Senator Joe Conway

When Ms Hynds Flanagan says "supervised", are they supervised by the teacher in the classroom, by a number of teachers, or by the principal? How does that work?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

It will always be a registered teacher. The principle is that they are not left alone.

Senator Joe Conway

That is fine. The second question probably has a fairly brief answer, too. We are all aware that, ten years ago, there was a political event of chasmic importance called Brexit. Prior to that, we had in Ireland a mutual recognition of EU qualifications. Has Brexit queered that pitch for UK-trained teachers?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

The process for recognising qualifications within the EU is extended globally, so-----

Senator Joe Conway

I am sorry, but could Ms Hynds Flanagan repeat that, please?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

It is extended globally, so the same process still applies. It has not caused any interruption to the recognition of UK qualifications.

Senator Joe Conway

Okay. I do not mean to be in any discourteous but I have another meeting at 10 a.m. Hopefully, I will be back later.

Senator Pauline Tully

Apologies, I was in the Seanad when the meeting began but I have read through the opening statement. I want to bring up a few issues. We are talking about inclusive education and qualifications, particularly in special education. We need all of our teachers to have experience in teaching children with additional needs in every setting. Often with continuing professional development, CPD, what teachers take is optional. Could there be some way of ensuring that they take a minimal amount of CPD relating to inclusive education at every level? It is included in initial teacher training now but it should be included at all other levels throughout a teacher's career.

I was contacted by a lady in my county. She has a teaching qualification from England, so she does not have the Irish component. She has taught in special school settings and is an excellent teacher in those settings. She is loved by the parents. Due to childcare issues, she was out of teaching for a few years and when she went to re-register with the Teaching Council, she was told that she did not have the full qualification because of the Irish, so she is looking at that and trying to master it. She was also informed by the council that if she took a postgraduate course in inclusive education in UCD or another institute, she would then qualify to teach, but now she is being told that her further education must be from outside the State. Will the witnesses clarify that? She is not getting clarification from the council. She sought proper clarification and has already registered for the course and paid the €8,000 fee to do it. Now she is being told that it may not qualify her. She wants to know whether she was given the correct information when she was talking to the Teaching Council. What route to becoming a qualified teacher is recognised by the Teaching Council here?

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the Senator for the questions. I will start with the last query first but, as I am sure she will appreciate, it is difficult for me to comment on individual cases. I do not have the requisite level of detail at my fingertips but I am very happy to assist that person. Perhaps I could make contact with the Senator's office or somebody may get in contact-----

Senator Pauline Tully

I emailed all of the details a number of days ago.

Ms Phil Fox

Okay. I will follow up on that. It is difficult for me to comment, to be honest, without the-----

Senator Pauline Tully

She has emailed the council herself but has not received a response. It is urgent because the course is due to start next week-----

Ms Phil Fox

We will follow up on that.

Senator Pauline Tully

-----and she does not know if she needs to withdraw from that course and seek a place somewhere else or whether she has lost all of her money.

Ms Phil Fox

I understand. We will follow that up.

In relation to the question regarding CPD and involvement in CPD across the continuum of teacher education, we have spoken a little this morning about the foundational competences and the very high standard that is the minimum threshold for a teacher to gain access to the register and be eligible to teach in our schools, but that is the not the end of the story. Teacher education does not finish with initial teacher education. It is the start of a teacher's career and there is a discrete phase on the continuum of teacher education, which is the Droichead induction framework, during which we can provide further insight and detail in due course. There is also the continuum of life-long learning.

The council took the proactive step back in 2016 of developing and publishing Cosán, the national framework for professional learning. That was developed on foot of quite an extensive consultation process with stakeholders and members of the profession. It identified six learning areas, one of which was inclusive education and a range of learning process that spanned both formal and informal learning. The Senator referred specifically to qualifications but what we know is that teachers learn in different ways. We also know that they are best placed to identify a particular learning need that they may have and the way they may address it. It may be through a formal postgraduate or microcredential course or it may be through a more informal structure like team teaching, teachers' collaborative practice or whatever the case may be.

The council's capacity to gather that data at any point, once a teacher is fully registered, requires a legislative basis. There is a provision in the Act that has never been commenced for a variety of reasons, so the volume of CPD that is being undertaken and engaged with by teachers is not quantified. There is no national view of that anywhere. The research that would be needed to identify the gaps, to the best of my knowledge, does not exist. That is not to say that there is not data in the system. We have a very sophisticated, evolving and flexible provision and model of CPD in the form of Oide, which is the State-funded teacher support service. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is specifically in this space and of course, the Education Support Centres Ireland, ECSI, network supports and facilitates teacher's professional learning in a variety of areas. I am sure all of those organisations, and others, will have data on teachers engaging in professional learning but there is actually no national view on that. I would suggest that the gap in that data makes it very difficult to ascertain what needs to happen next, if anything. That is possibly a key consideration, as well as the consequences and knock-on effects in terms of teacher supply and mobility in the context of the mandatory collection of data and information on CPD.

An Cathaoirleach

I am next on the speaking roster. Again, I thank the witnesses for coming in. My Teaching Council number is 150993. I renewed my registration two weeks ago. It is a payment I never like having to make but 120,000 of us have to do it each year. It has just become a fact of life.

I hold the view, which I expressed most recently last week, that there is some systematic failure with regard to the Irish language. There are many components to that. There are the Government, Departments, training colleges, the curriculum and many other cogs to this wheel. I want to hone in on this because the Teaching Council has a huge say, through Céim, in how initial teacher training is structured in colleges. Maybe this is not a great analogy but one would often see memes on social media where people are going to the gym and they are bulked up to the last on top but their legs are as skinny as hell. They are not doing their leg work. It seems to me that not enough is being done with the Irish language. We have teachers who have enough to get by. They can converse and chat in Irish, and I was one of those. I had enough to teach Irish every single day but when I got up here to the Dáil, as I said last week, I was thrown into a radio debate with Catherine Connolly, our President, in my first week. I went from having a fáinne and feeling that I had great fluency and could teach Irish all day in school to realising that the language set that we have as teachers is so narrow. The curriculum is so limited. We learn about comhréir, gramadach agus an tuiseal ginideach. There are topical areas we talk on like an scoil and sa siopa. It is very thematic but it is not generally how language is used in the real world. It is not immersive, so teachers and, as a consequence, pupils are learning this language set that just does not reflect where real life is. The whole Céim structure needs to change, although it is just one component. I am not laying it all on Céim. I had the best of Irish language teachers in Mary Immaculate College. I am not faulting them. There is something structurally wrong here. Does the council have a view on that? Does it bother the Teaching Council that the upper body is getting stronger but the legs are staying skinny and the Irish language is not improving?

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the question. I will segue back to our role. The role of the council is to set professional standards for teacher education and registration standards. One of the key ways that council supports that is through the accreditation process, as the Cathaoirleach rightly point out, for initial teacher education.

It is required that programmes must develop student teachers in terms of their competence and their confidence relative to their profession and their foundational standards, professional standards and placement.

Immersive education and practical application of the language is central to how a student's linguistic journey or the acquisition of the language would occur. Primary student teachers, and I know the Chair referred to Mary Immaculate College so he will be as aware of this as I am, must undertake a minimum of a four-week placement, a tréimhse foghlama sa Ghaeltacht, and that is complemented by opportunities in the HEIs, for example, on a social level. We are aware that the HEIs provide a range of activities, and day-to-day activities, to support student teachers in their language acquisition process, including the likes of coffee mornings and other social outlets that they might have.

With a view to broadening the capacity in the system, the council has five new programmes as of last Monday, which my colleague referred to earlier. One of those is the máistreacht ghairmiúil sa bhunoideachas i gColáiste na hOllscoile Corcaigh. It is a new departure for Cork to have a primary Irish-medium postgraduate qualification for teacher education. At post-primary level, we have introduced accredited programmes in recent times. For example, the Mary Immaculate College campus in Thurles has programmes through the medium of Irish or programmes that have Irish and another subject as an undergraduate programme.

An Cathaoirleach

My father was a fireman and there were elements of his initial training that it was felt would last him throughout his career, but there were also elements such as using a breathing apparatus and CPR that they had to do a refresher course for every couple of years.

It just seems to me, as someone who went through Mary Immaculate College, and registers annually with the Teaching Council, just in case I get a kick up the backside and have to go back to classroom, that teachers get their Droichead and their literal teaching training done, then graduate, do their probations, hopefully get a permanent job and are through the door. To many teachers, it seems like they renew with the Teaching Council, go to work, get paid and do their job as best they can. However, there are no follow-ups on the Irish language or certain elements of what we teach and our core competencies as professionals. Will we go from continuous professional development to compulsory professional development in certain aspects of the profession at any point? It just seems that we have some incredibly talented people teaching, but one element, the Irish language, is slipping, and I do not know if enough is being done once people are in the system beyond probation and Droichead to follow up and ensure that standards across the whole country are upheld.

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the Cathaoirleach for that follow-up question. In relation to the role of the council in addressing shortages of teachers or skill deficits in the workforce at local level, there is a role for other stakeholders in that. Our role in accrediting programmes of ITE clearly ends when a student comes out through the other end of an ITE programme and has met the foundational standard.

We know that to support teachers' learning, the national support service funded through the Department has a language section teachers can avail of. Of course, they can identify their learning need at an earlier stage. They can identify that need as part of the Droichead process and seek support and engage in professional development there.

Further on, when they move when they move from that discrete phase into the continuum of lifelong or career-long learning in the Cósan framework, it is open to teachers to engage with support services or other mechanisms to address any identified learning need that they may have.

Deputy Jen Cummins

I thank Ms Fox for her presentation, and I also want to thank the Teaching Council publicly for all the work it does on the queries that I send in. I thank the council for its prompt replies and patience when I am asking ten questions about why someone cannot register. It is very difficult, and I appreciated the document about how teachers can register and things like that. It is very difficult especially if they are re-registering or if they are coming from elsewhere. That has been a challenge, but I think that is probably a conversation for a different day.

Regarding the initial teacher education programmes, people have to do that placement in schools from this month onwards. My understanding is that when it comes to some of the initial teacher training programmes, it is not fully understood how it will actually work on the ground. What documentation has gone out to them? Has it gone out yet? Are there enough placements for every student who is going to do that placement over the next year? I presume it applies to the people who are starting first year now. It is not going to be retrospective. Will the witnesses clarify that?

I know that this is a little bit rushed, but the quality is important. The evaluation process took three years and a huge amount of work was done. I was involved in it with the advisory group in Trinity College Dublin. It was a massive amount of work and then this was added on top of that. Has the quality control around that been evaluated? It is so important. Céim is just so important and so is Cosán. How thorough was the Teaching Council when it got the Céim evaluation done? Is this new initiative fully immersed in that? Are there enough spaces for every student to get on it? Is it for those who are already involved? How much can be learned in two weeks?

CPD should be mandatory for people who did not have the opportunity to do what is going to happen now for these students coming in to do these placements. We have had a number of witnesses coming in here and talking about the fact that, particularly at second level, their teacher was highly qualified to teach the subject matter but did not have the understanding of, for example, dyslexia. Many people have dyslexia. I am hoping to start an all-party committee on it because I think it is really important, but the thing that came back was that the teachers did not have enough training on it. They are really qualified teachers, but they did not understand how to teach to a dyslexic student depending on their age. That is really important. How can we make sure that anyone who has already gone through the process is fully up to date with everything? It is always changing and there are things that maybe were not identified 20 or 30 years ago. How do we best support those students?

Ms Phil Fox

I am going to hand to my colleague Ms Hynds O'Flanagan to answer the questions on the special education learning placement.

Ms Margaret Hynds Flanagan

I will be as quick as I can because there are a lot of questions in there. We started talking about this over a year ago. It is listed in the EPSEN implementation plan that came out in June. It was a direction to improve the system. Normally, we would not make a change between Céim reviews, but this is so important and so urgent that there was a decision taken that this needed to be done now.

The other element to that is that we have built in a review process for Q2 2027. The Deputy is right. It was done quite quickly, but it was done in consultation. It is building and progressing on what is there already. Some of the HEIs are already very close to what we are looking, so there is already good practice out there that they can share. This time every year, we have a consultation with the HEIs and the Department and we tested this idea out with them. They said that most of them were very close to it already.

What we are formalising is that every student teacher gets at least a central threshold experience. We had initially looked at everybody doing it. Anyone who is in the system now has to do it before they finish. That is the capacity in it.

Deputy Jen Cummins

Can they still do it if they are in third year?

Ms Margaret Hynds Flanagan

Yes. We did a good piece of research to match capacity to what was needed and that was the best outcome that we could come to. It also difficult finding placements. If we look at it, there are a variety of ways to do it and a variety of ways to approach it. As I said earlier, it is the full system. It is not all about standing in a class and whether someone can teach their subject in this context. Understanding the context is as important as the subject and delivering it.

Ms Bríd Murphy

The focus of the ISA was on children with persistent and enduring needs. Along with continuing support, the focus is on those levels. In terms of the accreditation process, we have a very robust process. It takes about six to nine months to review a programme. We reviewed 52 in the period of time between 2021 and 2024. It is a 12-stage process laid out procedurally and we have review panels with specific expertise that look at the programmes and do the footwork on behalf of our education committee and council.

The accreditation lasts for five years, so very quickly again, we go into looking at the Céim standards and looking at the next accreditation cycle.

Céim was published in 2020. In quarter 1 of this year, we started the review of Céim. That might sound a little contradictory in terms of the standards we are trying to embed, but, at the same time, we need to keep up with the evolving needs of the system. That review process will run until the end of next year. During that period, we will be looking at what may need to evolve or shift in order to enhance Céim again for the next round. There are very quick turnarounds each time in terms of the system. It might sound long, but it is actually quite quick in terms of the systemic change.research.

Deputy Jen Cummins

I thank Ms Murphy.

Ms Phil Fox

The Deputy's final question was in relation to CPD and the continuum of teacher education. It might be worth mentioning that the UNESCO report, as I am sure committee is aware, was published on 7 September. It is relative to the wider systemic question of how we develop, recognise and sustain expertise in special education. Some new recommendations are made in that report. The council has not discussed these yet because the report was only published on 7 September. UNESCO wonders about the extent to which particular and very careful consideration would be given to mandating CPD or ensuring that there is a sufficient number of appropriately qualified teachers in the system before any such measure would be taken. Again, I think we are back to the research.

Senator Shane Curley

I thank everyone for coming in. I engaged with the Droichead process as a newly qualified teacher and found it really good. There are a lot of positives out there with the continuum of learning for teachers once they leave college. As a teacher, my biggest concern relates to the once-off approach pursuing the two-year PME and it then being a case of going off and fending for yourself. I am particularly concerned about this in the context of SEN training.

The Teaching Council is the standard body for teachers in Ireland. Can the witnesses tell me what percentage of teachers registered for CPD courses last year, the year before or in whatever year for which the most recent data is available?

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the Senator very much for the question. The short answer is "No". There are-----

Senator Shane Curley

That is fair enough. I have a problem with that. Last year, the Teaching Council charged 126,000 teachers €11.34 million. Where is that money going? Why can Ms Fox not tell me, in the context of such a basic question, what percentage of the 126,000 teachers were registered for CPD and upskilling on a yearly basis? Why are we not doing that?

Ms Phil Fox

We collect data in line with the legislative basis that we have and the data protection legislation that is in place. A legal basis to collect data around CPD does not exist for us. There are two provisions in the Act, sections 33 and 39, neither of which has been commenced. We simply do not have the legislative armoury to do it.

Senator Shane Curley

Fair enough. That means there is a body of work for us, as legislators, to do to give the council the power to go and do that. Is that basically what Ms Fox is saying?

Ms Phil Fox

That is not exactly what I am saying. I am saying that the UNESCO report talks about being mindful of what impact that may have in terms of supply and mobility in the sector. Also, and this probably goes back to the Deputy's comment-----

Senator Shane Curley

I am sorry. I do not mean to be rude, but is UNESCO saying that it is a potential negative for the standards body of a country to monitor what percentage of teachers are upskilling annually or over whatever period?

Ms Phil Fox

No. I could not possibly speak for UNESCO but it has not said that. What it has said is that consideration should be given to it and that careful consideration should also be given to the consequences.

Senator Shane Curley

Does UNESCO have any idea of what any potentially negative consequences could be?

Ms Phil Fox

No. The report was published on 7 September, so it is very new and we have not discussed it at council level at all.

Senator Shane Curley

Professor Joe Travers was here last week. He stated that CPD is the weakest element and that when it comes to the continuum of learning for teachers generally, the monitoring and overall delivery of CPD are weak. Will Cosán or any of the programmes that are being rolled out with the Teaching Council include an annual school closure day for SEN training for all teachers in the country? I have had massive feedback on this from teachers. The overwhelming feedback is that they feel lost in classrooms, that they feel very under-trained in SEN and that they want to be more equipped going into the classroom. Parents are also giving me overwhelming feedback that they feel exactly the same and that the students are not having the most optimal experience they could have in the classroom. That is not the teacher's fault. Teachers are extremely busy. They are involved in a lot of voluntary extracurricular activities. They took up a vocation and they care, but they are not being given the training. Why is that? If the council took in €11.34 million last year, one of the most basic things it could do would be to at least monitor what teachers are provided with from the point of view of CPD. It it cannot do that, it should at least make sure that there is adequate training and a sufficient number of school closure days for the most basic of things and that SEN training for teachers is rolled out as a policy. I might go to Ms Murphy on the policy side, if that is preferable. Why is this not a policy for the Teaching Council?

Ms Phil Fox

I will answer the Senator's first question, if that is okay. I thank him for the question because it is helpful to clarify our role. We do not have any direct role in funding or provision of CPD. That is a matter for the Department of Education and Youth-----

Senator Shane Curley

The council is not even monitoring it, however. I understand that there is a legislative lack in that regard-----

Ms Phil Fox

Yes.

Senator Shane Curley

----- but the situation is not even being monitored.

Ms Phil Fox

It is not being monitored by us. It is not that there is no data in the system. Oide has its programme of work. The NCSE has its programme of work. I am sure the education support centre networks have their own data. It is not strictly correct to say that there is no data available. We do not carry the data. We do not have a legislative basis to collect it. There is no national view on the data.

Senator Shane Curley

Are there too many bodies involved? Take the Medical Council. It knows exactly what CPD every doctor in the country is doing. This means that a patient can safely walk into a GP practice or other medical facility for whatever treatment he or she may need.

Ms Phil Fox

I would not say that. I would say that we have a very sophisticated and high-quality provision of CPD for teachers that is available and funded through the State. I would guess that most other professions would be envious of that provision. We have an education support centre network to support teachers in their learning that is also very sophisticated and that is dotted around the country. We have a dedicated council for special education.

Senator Shane Curley

I fully agree with the positivity that is there. It is what I wanted to start on to make sure that I was not trying to be unduly negative. I had a very good experience with the Droichead process. I really enjoyed it. I learned from a really good teacher who mentored me for a full year in school, and it was brilliant. I really had a good time.

I only have a few seconds remaining. If the €11.34 million is not used for monitoring the upskilling of teachers who are registering on a yearly basis and who are paying €90, what is it used for?

Ms Phil Fox

I have nine seconds. We maintain the largest professional register in the country. It covers the vetting and revetting of teachers, accreditation and registration processes and the systems necessary to support all of that. We run the statutory fitness-to-teach processes and comply with all of the other legislative requirements that every State body is required, under statute, to implement.

Senator Shane Curley

I am nearly out of time, but I have a final comment. I really appreciate the engagement. Ms Fox mentioned fitness to teach. All teachers are hungry for knowledge. They really want to learn as best they can. I have a personal concern that CPD and any level of upskilling is not intertwined in the fitness to teach with the yearly registration with the Teaching Council. I am not saying that any teacher in the country is unfit to teach; I just think there is a gap that we need to address. That is my personal opinion, which I would like to thrash out further with the council, if possible, down the line.

An Cathaoirleach

We will have a second round and, hopefully, members will have three minutes each. We will get to that shortly.

Deputy Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as ucht a bheith anseo. Tá fáilte rompu. An tseachtain seo caite, I brought up the case of SNAs who are looking to progress into teaching. Since then, I have received many messages. There is a clear demand in this regard, not from SNAs wanting to look for shortcuts or to water down requirements but for a fair and adequate recognition of prior learning. There are people with early childhood education degrees who have done the pedagogy, educational history and psychology. The HEIs were very receptive to this idea when they were before us last week. What is the process to initiate the change? What ideas could be workable? An idea that keeps floating around relates to route 4, which was removed by the Teaching Council some years ago. I would love to hear the witnesses' thoughts on that, because there is a clear demand for people to progress.

Ms Phil Fox

The council is very supportive of the objective of widening access to teaching and increasing diversity in the profession while maintaining standards. That is our role, as set out. Recognition of prior learning should identify what an applicant already knows and can demonstrably do in order that relevant professional experience can be recognised and we can avoid duplication in the system. Where somebody has appropriate learning, this should be recognised in circumstances where they wish to transition from one role to another.

However, it is important to say that experience as an SNA, an early years qualification or other relevant experience is not automatically interchangeable with professional preparation as a teacher. Teaching is regulated and requires pedagogical preparation and assessed practice. Professional standards are expected of every registered teacher in the country. Classrooms are getting increasingly complex and our teachers, when they complete their programmes, have reached that foundation of very high standards. That is the minimal threshold to enter the profession. To best support teachers, this is the type of learning that is identified as appropriate for them.

Deputy Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh

I understand that. I went to Coláiste Mhuire Marino and have done all of that. However, there are people out there with a level 8 degree who have studied the pedagogy, the sociology and everything else we have done and they also have experience. Is there a discussion about widening the alternative pathways? What can we do for those people who have an interest in SEN teaching and inclusive education? Currently, there are teachers who are put into SEN classes who do not want to be there or do not feel they have adequate training for it. There is more we can do in this regard. Is that something to which consideration is being given?

Ms Phil Fox

I ask my colleague Ms Murphy to comment on the policy aspects.

Ms Bríd Murphy

I thank the Deputy for her question. In addition to what the director has outlined, recognition of prior learning, RPL, is a matter for the HEIs. They have the expertise and they work within the centres of excellence framework, as outlined in Department ITE policy. The Department of education conducted a periodic critical review of the Teaching Council two years ago. One part of the recommendations of that review, which we are working through with the Department at the moment, was around how we could support HEIs to apply RPL and to clarify and communicate our role in that regard. There may be a lack of communication in the system around who should be doing what. We will be looking at this as part of the Céim review, which I referenced earlier. It is about clarifying the role and the ability to apply that learning. Ultimately, this would fall within the remit of the HEIs rather than the Teaching Council.

Deputy Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh

Reference was made to diversity, which came up last week in our discussions with the HEI representatives. I have a similar question for today's witnesses to what I asked the other witnesses last week. How is diversity being addressed and how can the Teaching Council help to improve access? What work is actively under way to facilitate that?

Ms Bríd Murphy

In terms of the council's role, we do not control access to the profession. That is set out within the national access plan, for which other bodies are responsible. However, there are things we do within policy and practice in accordance with the extent of our remit. The first is within our actual policy. Going back to the Céim document, which we have spoken a lot about, global citizenship education is included within that and it very much comes from a social justice perspective. We are the first regulator in the world to include that within a standards document. The teaching of students in classes currently and how teachers are being educated is coming from that perspective of challenging the status quo and asking those types of question within schools, which is supportive to people looking at opportunities for them in fields that might not be as diverse as any of us would like them to be.

Similarly, within the Droichead policy review, which we referenced earlier, we have included provision for newly qualified teachers, NQTs, who have additional needs themselves. Oide, the support service, will provide support to schools and NQTs in that regard by way of professional support teams. It is about a recognition of teachers with needs within the system currently or entering the system.

Under the research study we have commissioned with the Department of education, Teachers' Professional Journeys, which is being conducted by a research consortium in Mary Immaculate College, UL and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, objective No. 5 is to consider diversity. We get research reports annually under that study and they feed into our policy work. We also consult with a lot of diverse groups in terms of policy formation.

As regards our practice, we liaise with the migrant teacher project at the Marino Institute of Education, which the Deputy may be familiar with, which was set up by Dr. Rory McDaid and is funded by the Government. It assists and orientates teachers coming into our system from other countries. There is a bridging programme in place to support teachers in schools. We engage regularly with the project on the registration process, the application process and any issues that arise.

We also set up a tailored process for Ukrainian teachers in 2022 to assist them to come here and get registered and working as quickly as possible. We do a lot of outreach. I have done briefing sessions for teachers from Spanish-speaking countries. We have hosted delegations from Uganda, various parts of the EU and Canada as well. We are doing those things in the context of an awareness of the extent of our role.

Deputy Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh

Do the teachers coming from Spain or Ukraine have to study Gaeilge before they go into schools? How does that work?

Ms Phil Fox

The first question is whether they are primary or post-primary teachers. When teachers come to us from outside the State who are registered with a relevant competent authority and have qualified teacher status in another country, the process at the moment is that they would be advised of the shortfall on the Irish language requirement, given conditional registration and allowed three years to address that through an scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge or oiriúnú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge at Marino.

Deputy Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. I have another question but I will save it for the next round.

Deputy Ryan O'Meara

I thank the witnesses for their opening statement and the information they have shared with us thus far. I want to ask about the two-week immersive special education learning period. This is something I repeatedly asked about by way of parliamentary question prior to its introduction. Those questions may have come the witnesses' way for answering at different points. This was touched on during some of the earlier questions but I am looking for a better understanding of the requirements on student teachers during those two weeks of immersive training. First, what exact setting does a student teacher have to go into for those two weeks? Does it have to be a special class or special school or are there other options as well?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

It is not restricted to special schools. Special classes are included.

Deputy Ryan O'Meara

Is an SEN placement included as well? What I am trying to figure out is whether, to meet the requirement, the training must be done either in a special class in a mainstream school or in a special school. What exactly would the student teachers be doing for the two weeks and what different options are there?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

As to what they do for the two weeks, I am looking at a long list of things. To be clear, this is not the end of the line; it is a development, as I said in answer to Deputy Cummins's question. This is the first phase in evolving a consistent model across the HEIs. What we have done is take best practice. However, it is really important to note that there is a capacity problem within the system in terms of ensuring student teachers can access experience and opportunity. One of the biggest problems we found when we were developing the model was what to do with special classes. If every student teacher were to have two weeks in a special class, every special class in the State would have a weekly rotation. We could not do that to the children in those classes.

With this model, what we have done is make it as flexible as we can and included a variety of environments. Student teachers are not expected to spend the two weeks in the classroom. They are expected, as I said, to understand the context and to be able to deal with the various people who have roles in the context so that they can act effectively when they are teachers. It is about ensuring that when they start to teach students with special needs, they know whom to go to for help, where the resources are and to whom they need to talk. It is about more than just being in the classroom.

We will be reviewing the model in quarter 2 of 2027 to see how well it is working. We are treating it as a pilot. It is a way to test out a different approach in order that, as we formalise a system in the next iteration of Céim, which is currently being developed, we will have something that we know will work. There is still flexibility in it.

Deputy Ryan O'Meara

I am still trying to figure out exactly what student teachers would do in the two weeks to give them sufficient experience such that we can say at the end of it that they are qualified to teach in a special classroom or a special school. This year, we have opened 580 or so new special classes. Are we saying that the teachers being trained now, who will do those two weeks, are technically qualified to go straight into one of those new special classes, if that is where they end up, without ever previously having been in one of them? That is the point I am trying to understand. What are they doing during the two-week period? Something is happening, and it is a start, but what is the benefit to the student of those two weeks of training?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

I can read the list of things teachers can do. There are a variety of experiences that are expected to happen. Not all of them are there; it is not an exhaustive list. For example, they are to engage with school policies and practices on inclusion and understand how they are implemented; engage with school provision plans, classroom support plans and developing student support plans; understand how learners' strengths and needs are identified - this is very much "sitting by Nellie" learning with a registered teacher; and understand how priority learning needs that form the basis of targets are identified. It is very practical. It includes setting targets for each student in their student support plan, having an understanding of how supports are monitored and reviewed and having an understanding of how outcomes from targeted interventions are identified and monitored. There are a variety of activities there. I do not know if that is enough granular detail.

Deputy Ryan O'Meara

That is practical and probably is useful but I am still curious - are we going far enough? At the end of this pilot, will the council look at going further with that immersive experience for teachers? The demand is growing. More and more teachers are needed in special education. We all see it in our constituencies because we are all trying to get it opened in schools. Are those teachers who are being trained right now adequately prepared? If they are not, where will CPD step in to make sure they are supported to be able to do the job that technically they are qualified to do? In reality, are they being supported and prepared enough in advance to go into those classrooms?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

It is fair to say this is a progression that is building on a lot of good practice that has evolved but has not been consistent across programmes. This is two weeks out of the existing placement. It is an additional core element. It is not intended to take place until the latter part of the programme where the teachers are already quite experienced and able to learn more quickly or absorb things differently. It is not supposed to take place until after they have done the formal modules, to maximise the learning they will get out of it. We recognise that it is only two weeks, but this is a general education. It is not a specialist special education programme. Every teacher needs to get this so fitting it into an already busy programme is a challenge. We are testing it out with this particular model.

An Cathaoirleach

We will have a second round of contributions with three minutes per member. I concur with others that the whole area of special education is so vast. We have several members here who are teachers. A lot of these programmes have been overhauled since I trained; I graduated 20 years ago. When you go into a primary school classroom you are faced with scenarios, diagnoses, programmes, recommendations and therapeutic supports that you never heard of in your initial teacher education. We had Google back then but we did not have any one-stop-shop resource book. CPD was linked to three extra personal vacation, EPV, days, which was good. I personally think those days should be given anyway. They should not be linked because what invariably happens is that a child arrives into your class, you get a handover folder from the teacher who had the child the year before and you are scrambling. Sometimes, it can be dyslexia or dyscalculia and you say, "That is grand. I understand that as I had that last year", but sometimes it can be Stargardt disease. Where do you begin and end?

I go back to the point that CPD is excessively linked to these EPV days. Honestly, some years when I was teaching I was motivated to do a course because there was something very specific in my classroom I wanted to pursue and a child I wanted to specifically support. However, there are other times that is it just handy to get those three EPV days and that is a reality. If we say otherwise we are not being honest with ourselves.

Those two things need to be decoupled. Some CPD should be mandatory, particularly where it relates to SEN. I want to revert because some other members have asked if it has ever been discussed with the Minister that there would be mandatory CPD? If so, would it be in the realms of special education and, as I said, the Irish language?

Ms Phil Fox

Where a teacher turns when he or she finds themselves in a situation depends on the stage of his or her career. For newly qualified teachers, there is the dedicated discrete phase of the continuum of education where there is access to a professional support team for them as part of the Droichead process. It is up to the newly qualified teacher to access that resource and the experience that exists in the school context and circumstances they are in, once they identify that there is a learning need in the class they do not know how to facilitate and assist with. That process is in place.

Moving further on, one thing we did not mention is the council has access for all of the 130,000 registered teachers to the EBSCO repository. That is available for teachers to assist them if they come up against something that is brand new that they have not come across before.

The Cathaoirleach's point is correct. It is very difficult to see how any one qualification or programme, be it the initial teacher education or a postgraduate course in special education, inclusion or whatever the programme might be, would address all of the varieties of contexts and learning needs, be it a learning need or cultural difference or whatever the case might be. In an increasingly diverse classroom it is very difficult to see how any one qualification could match all of that. It will be in the space of continuous learning and council-----

An Cathaoirleach

But not mandatory.

Ms Phil Fox

It is not mandatory at the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the council advising the Minister that it should become mandatory?

Ms Phil Fox

There is no discussion ongoing at the moment at council level about having that mandatory or having the two provisions commenced. The system has responded in a way that is flexible and agile to address the need and the gap in the provision of CPD and that is in the form of Oide, the NCSE and the Education Support Centres Ireland network. It is probably wise for us to look at what already exists in the system. We know that most primary teachers engage in courses over the summer months. That data is not available to us. We would not have a way or mechanism to gather that data.

Deputy Jen Cummins

I agree with the previous speaker that we need to look at mandatory CPD for people because it is just too important. The announcement made by the Minister last year with regard to having placements in special schools or special classes is because there was such an outcry about the need for schools. I am not sure it was a fully formed idea in the sense that now we are grappling with where to put them and how we will do it. I fully agree that a child with additional needs, or any child with a vulnerability, should not have a never-ending stream of people coming in. They are not guinea pigs. They are children so it is not acceptable to do it that way. I feel the pain the council has to try to do the best it can with something that was announced in that way.

Part of my real disappointment in the system is that we are constantly behind. We are always reacting to these things rather than forward planning. Part of me thinks, through the course of this conversation especially, is that perhaps we need to have a specialist qualification for special education. I have friends or people I know who have trained in England, Australia or elsewhere, Finland, for example. When they finish their qualification it is more specialised in certain areas. They do their general qualification but then it is more specialised. When we have a shortage in teacher retention, as the UNESCO report found, it is the council's responsibility, with others, to figure out how to reduce those numbers. Does Ms Fox think we should become more specialised in that training during the four years? Maybe it is a fifth year - I do not want people to get cross. I feel for the teacher going in wondering how they will do this, but I feel more strongly for the child and their parent or guardian that teachers and schools are catching up with the knowledge parents and carers have. Do we need to move more towards specialist training for special education? How would that look?

Ms Phil Fox

The recommendation from UNESCO is that the council should consider an advanced practice register in consultation with the Department. Those recommendations are actually for the Department so that requires us to have a conversation with it and obviously a conversation at council level, which has not happened yet. The report was only published on 7 September. As my colleague referenced earlier, there was a periodic critical review, PCR, as required under the code of practice to State bodies for non-commercial bodies in 2024 and some of the recommendations are in the area of CPD. Those recommendations have been brought to the Department. The council is working its way through them with the Department and they were made available to our Minister also. Some of the recommendations centre on the extent to which the legal basis exists for us to gather the data, as we spoke about, and how all of that might happen.

That is where that stands currently.

Senator Shane Curley

I thank the Teaching Council for coming in. I appreciate this engagement. It is really valuable. I am of the view that if we want to maximise the number of students with SENs in mainstream education, we need to maximise the SEN training for teachers who teach these children in mainstream classrooms. That is my overall view.

As the standards body, does the Teaching Council have the power to obligate the NCSE, Oide or any other State agency under its remit to carry out universal training? If not, who is setting the minimum standards for teaching registration?

Ms Phil Fox

We do not have the power to mandate any other organisation to carry out mandatory CPD. Our role is in the registration of teachers and setting the standards for initial teacher education and the induction framework.

Senator Shane Curley

I understand what Ms Fox is saying but the Teaching Council is also the body that registers teachers on an annual basis. Like the Cathaoirleach, I pay €90 a year to be a teacher. I still do the very occasional substitute teaching class. If the Teaching Council is the body charging that money, does it not have the responsibility to make sure every teacher paying that fee and being allowed into a classroom is given adequate training? Is that ultimate responsibility not with the Teaching Council?

Ms Phil Fox

I am sorry if I am repeating myself but the legislative basis for the Teaching Council to do that is not in place. There are provisions in the Act but they have not been commenced. We are operating to the full extent of the legislation and the legislative powers we have. That is as strongly as I can put it. The legislation was drafted in the late 1990s when the supports and systemic responses I referred to earlier, for example Oide, the NCSE and wraparound supports, may not have been fully functional. They are in place now, however. The context is slightly different.

Senator Shane Curley

There is a gap we need to fill with more power for the Teaching Council.

Ms Phil Fox

The context and learning styles are different. Linking CPD to registration would need to be very carefully considered along with the knock-on negative consequences that may have. Before any of that, we need to establish what is in the system. There are a lot of assumptions about what is happening in CPD but the national view of the data is not available. We do know-----

Senator Shane Curley

I get that. I thank Ms Fox for her answer. I am getting overwhelming feedback from teachers who feel lost and do not feel adequately trained. If they pay €90 a year to the Teaching Council, as the standards body for teaching, there is an onus on the council to make sure that training is provided.

I know we are running out of time. Perhaps we can run over a bit given it is the last engagement.

An Cathaoirleach

I will give the Senator an extra minute.

Senator Shane Curley

Will the witnesses give a snapshot or overview of where the €11.4 million is going? How many staff are in the Teaching Council?

Ms Phil Fox

There are 79.

Senator Shane Curley

Other than that, where is the rest of the money spent?

Ms Phil Fox

Ms Hynds O'Flanagan has the figures to hand.

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

The primary spend is on staffing, that is, the staff who speak to the teachers and get them registered, and also on fitness to teach. That is a critical process but an expensive one.

Senator Shane Curley

How is that money spent? Where does it go in the fitness to teach process?

Ms Phil Fox

We have three committees which administer statutory processes under the fitness to teach part of the legislation, Part 5 of the Act. One is for emergency suspensions where there is an immediate and serious risk of harm to the public so we can act very quickly in that regard. It is a section 47 suspension. In that instance, there is a team for the director and a legal assessor for the panel because the panel are laypeople. That is where some of the expense for section 47-----

Senator Shane Curley

Litigation is a big expense for the Teaching Council.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you can have a bit more time. I will balance it because there are no other members here. He can keep going. Deputy Jen Cummins and I will take time afterwards.

Senator Shane Curley

This is important. Litigation is a huge expense for the Teaching Council every year when there are processes in place.

Ms Phil Fox

I would not describe that as litigation. It is running the process. We are subject to-----

Senator Shane Curley

Legal fees and legal assistance.

Ms Phil Fox

-----judicial review. We have been judicially reviewed and have been successful in all judicial reviews that have gone through the High Court to date, thankfully. That is one process.

We have an investigation committee which oversees all complaints that come in. If the committee is satisfied that a complaint is sufficiently serious and there is something that warrants looking into further and going to inquiry, it will refer that on to the disciplinary committee, a panel of three. That panel is assisted by a legal counsel and the director's case is presented by a legal team.

Senator Shane Curley

Are they salaried permanent staff members or contracted in as needed? How does that work?

Ms Phil Fox

The panel are volunteers. They are members of the council and its disciplinary committee. There is a committee of 13, and three of those members populate each panel. The senior counsel has to be independent of the director and of the teachers, so that person is not on a salary from us.

Senator Shane Curley

That gives some insight. I really appreciate the witnesses coming in and having this engagement.

Ms Phil Fox

We thank the Senator for his questions.

Senator Shane Curley

There are huge gaps we need to address but I appreciate the engagement nonetheless.

Deputy Jen Cummins

I might ask a question which I said earlier I would not ask but if we have time, I will ask it. It is not about anybody specific. Among the types of person contacting me are early childhood educator. They have a degree from whatever institution it may be and they are teaching junior and senior infants. They can teach the Aistear years because it equates. It is then very challenging when they want to go into primary school teaching. A fair number of people have contacted me. Are there plans to make that process easier rather than them having to go back and start the whole thing again? Is there a way for them to move into primary school teaching with that qualification?

The second category of person who have contacted me quite a lot are those who have worked in therapies, for example, play therapists and psychotherapists, who realise they would like to be in teaching, particularly special education. They might have years of training but they have to go back to do the teaching qualification. There is a third category of person who comes from outside the State and would like to teach. Getting that qualification is very difficult for them. Is there a process to convert?

Ms Phil Fox

This refers back to my colleague's earlier contribution on recognition of prior learning. Currently there is a process, as I understand it, at each higher education institution. It is a local matter for each higher education institution to apply the recognition of prior learning process or procedure, or whatever it has in place, to recognise learning that is demonstrably relevant. Where the person has a competence in a certain area, that would offset the need for some of the qualifications. Our role in that may be guidance but it is a wider issue. It does not fall within the remit of the Teaching Council but it intersects in the way the Deputy described.

We declare and set the standards and hold people to them. We know every teacher on the register is of high quality. They have a sufficient qualification and are of good character. It is important for us to be able to assure the public and the Minister and to safeguard standards and safety in the classroom. For that reason, it has to be the case that everybody meets that foundational standard.

Deputy Jen Cummins

I agree 100%. It is the same with the Medical Council. You would not say someone who trained as a dentist can go and be a surgeon. I understand that. That example was given to me by a colleague a number of years ago and it stuck in my mind. It is, however, frustrating for those people when they try to register. Sometimes, the route to teaching is different, which is great because we want diversity in teaching. It is important they are not prevented but that it is not too easy either. We do not want any randomer in teaching; we need people of high quality and high standards but it is frustrating for people.

Ms Phil Fox

I can understand the sense of frustration. Recognition of prior learning would be the first port of call for those applicants who would like to be teachers. The council is in favour of widening access while maintaining the standard, as we are required to do.

Deputy Jen Cummins

Because there has been a shortage, there are people teaching in schools who do not the qualification. They might be there for a number of years as a substitute. They may be in and out. There is then frustration that they cannot continue teaching and do the course or converter course at the same time. Is it possible for them to do the course while they are teaching?

Ms Phil Fox

The programmes are very intense, and are getting more intense as we are going along. There is more being asked of teachers in initial teacher education and providers. An example is the learning placement we spoke about earlier. There is a need for teachers to have the space and time to reflect to become inclusive, reflective practitioners and engage in practitioner research as part of their programme. That formed the basis for the reconceptualisation of those programmes previously. There are some flexible opportunities and different models of provision that meet the same standard but take a slightly different route. Those provisions exist.

An Cathaoirleach

I am the last speaker. What dataset does the Teaching Council hold on individual teachers? I am guessing there is data related to when they qualified, Droichead, where they are employed and whether they are Garda vetted.

Ms Phil Fox

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I know we cannot see a screen, but what would be there for the average teacher in Ireland? What would appear on that screen?

Ms Phil Fox

We hold the minimum data that we need to identify who they are for the purposes of Garda vetting and their qualifications. They must have their minimum threshold qualifications and IT qualifications. It is a matter for the teachers whether they would like to supply us with any other qualification they might do over time. We have whatever qualifications they supply to us. We would know if there is any condition on their registration, whether a qualification shortfall, Droichead induction shortfall or any other condition on their registration for a period of time. We have their addresses and dates of birth. They can provide their employment details. It is not absolutely necessary because, as the Cathaoirleach knows, the way the system works means you could be subbing in a school today and in a different one tomorrow. Your employer might change or vary throughout the year.

We do not routinely gather any statistics on a person's religion or ethnicity or any protected characteristics or special category data under the general data protection regulation, GDPR. We do not have a legislative basis for that, in line with data minimisation and proportionate gathering of data. That is basically it. If there are any fitness-to-teach-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is comprehensive. If parents have a grievance with a teacher, they can go to the teacher, the principal or the board of management. They can contact the inspectorate if they like. They can go to the Teaching Council. There are steps of escalation. Where a parent bypasses those steps or goes through those steps of escalation, does the Teaching Council record the details of the complaint? The committee occasionally receives correspondence with which it can do very little but we always acknowledge it and send it back. It is minuted but does not become part of the body of our committee. It is important that serious and genuine complaints are investigated and potentially upheld. It is equally important that vexatious complaints, which happen, are considered and wiped from the record. Do the records of the Teaching Council hold data on complaints whether they have been followed through on or dismissed? Does the Teaching Council keep that kind of catalogue?

Ms Phil Fox

We have a separate system for fitness to teach. It is a public-facing register. While a fitness-to-teach complaint is ongoing, that data would not be displayed on our public-facing register. There is a limited set of circumstances where a sanction or condition would be displayed on somebody's front-facing registration database. We keep the data in our secure system. It would not make its way onto a teacher's registration file. Those are two separate and distinct systems. One system is a registration database and the other is a fitness-to-teach case management database.

An Cathaoirleach

To my knowledge, the Teaching Council has the only a database of teaching qualifications and additional qualifications, including CPD and other courses. Does the Department occasionally link in with the Teaching Council to try to synchronise information on qualifications and who is taking on leadership roles? The point I am getting to is that the Teaching Council cannot have eyes on everything. There are so many teachers and schools. Does the Department ever ask the Teaching Council? People may be taking on leadership roles in special education, migrating into the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, taking on roles in the inspectorate or taking on leadership roles within a school. Are there ever audits or is there ever synchronisation in respect of skill sets? I get that when every job is advertised, there are criteria that must be fulfilled. I get that that is a part of a job specification. Does the Teaching Council ever use its dataset to inform the Department that we are getting the best qualified people or are not?

Ms Phil Fox

I am going to hand over to my colleague.

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

We have the register-----

An Cathaoirleach

Is the information used dynamically or is it just held in a database?

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

The information is held in a database and is used for a variety of purposes within the permission we have under data protection. There are data exchanges with Oide around people doing Droichead to speed up the process and make it easier. There are obviously data exchanges with the Department to support the payroll process. That is one of the key ways in which the register is used. One of the big recommendations from the UNESCO report is greater consolidation of data across various resources, mainly to identify gaps in subject areas in particular.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That is good.

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

It identifies local gaps. That is within the UNESCO report. There are key players in that. I am happy to say that a lot of work has been done in the Teaching Council in the last few years to restructure and reorganise the data so it is able to be better used in that way. We looked at robotics in the context of how data was used during the Covid-19 pandemic, which allowed us to be more agile in how we use our data. We are in the middle of doing that work. It is progressing quickly. A bigger plan is suggested through the UNESCO report, which the Department-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is good. I did not expect that to be happening. That is-----

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

We can send the committee the link to the report.

An Cathaoirleach

That is good to hear. Well done on that.

Can the witnesses provide the committee with the active number of suspensions or outright dismissals from the profession at primary and post-primary level as things stand?

Ms Phil Fox

I do not have those figures to hand.

Ms Margaret Hynds O'Flanagan

We do publish them regularly. We can give the committee the most recent-----

An Cathaoirleach

The witnesses might write to the committee secretariat.

Ms Phil Fox

We can make that available to the committee.

Deputy Jen Cummins

Could I also ask for information about those teaching in community education and adult education? The Teaching Council also covers those teachers. We can focus on the other part, but that is also important. Perhaps that information could be provided to the committee.

Ms Phil Fox

We can make that available to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses. Do they want some time to come in again? The clock can be against you sometimes when you are answering. Were there any bits that the witnesses would like to close out?

Ms Phil Fox

I thank the committee for its work. This is an important area that affects every community and household in the country. As the regulator of the teaching profession, we are proud of the profession that exists in Ireland. We are in a coveted space in that the quality and standing of teachers in society is as good and high as it is. It is for the regulator to uphold that and maintain the reputation and status of the profession among the public. That is made easy for us by the quality of the teachers we have, the robust systems that we have in place to declare and set our standards, and the legislative processes we have for vetting and fitness to teach to ensure that every teacher adheres to those expectations and that every learner at all levels across the system has the best opportunity to learn and thrive in whatever environment and circumstance they are in.

We are fortunate that we have the Droichead induction framework in the good condition it is in. It commenced on 1 September this year. The impact for all of our newly qualified teachers last year was that over 3,900 teachers completed Droichead in the 2025-26 school year. Those teachers accessed professional support team support, Oide supports and professional learning, and started their careers with that situation. Since 1 September, 2,490 teachers have applied for Droichead, across 1,189 schools at primary and post-primary level.

The volume of initial applications from 1 January to 17 September was 2,112. Some 3,732 people who were student teachers last year, and are now newly qualified teachers, have, through our newly qualified teacher fast track, gone through the recently accredited programmes to which Ms Murphy referred earlier. Each of them will have had inclusion as a core element of their programme.

It will have been an infusion throughout their foundation and their professional and school placement. We are very proud of that.

Approximately 700 people per year come from overseas to us. Our turnaround times for those, for clarity, is about seven weeks for primary and about nine weeks for post primary. We have issues at times with overseas police clearance and gathering information from institutions in other countries for a variety of reasons but that is our average processing time. We have vetted 34,000 teachers between 1 January and 17 September. That is a huge volume of work that has been driven through the council. Our processing for stage 1 is just over four days. The NVB processing time is now between 12 and 15 working days. That is a little longer than it used to be, because the vetting bureau has introduced a new step whereby any teacher who has taught in the UK or EU has to go through an additional child protection step, which strengthens our resilience in safeguarding children in the classroom. Of those 34,000, about 28,000 were revetting applications and almost 6,000 were initial applications.

Those are some of the contributions we are making to the system to uphold the standards, status and reputation of the profession and safeguard the children in the classroom. It has been lovely to have an opportunity to speak with the committee and I wish it well with its work.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Fox. We really appreciate the witnesses coming in here today. We do not have powers to direct any course of action here as we are an Oireachtas committee but I like to feel we are an informed body of public representatives. We bring in other stakeholders, such as the colleges of education last week, and we take a good temperature gauge of where things are at. All I ask - we can only ask and not direct; only the Minister can do that - is that some of the sentiments around CPD and the quality of Irish and special education be in their considerations and thoughts as the council meets and has its own in-house discussions on this with the NCSE, the Department and the Minister.

I warmly thank the witnesses for their presence and for informing the debate and engaging with all of the elected Members. I thank the secretariat, as always, for its fantastic support and I thank the technical team. Our committee now stands adjourned until Wednesday, 30 September 2026, when we will meet at 12.30 p.m. in private session, immediately followed by a public session.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 11.13 a.m. go dtí 12.30 p.m. Dé Céadaoin, an 30 Meán Fómhair 2026.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.13 a.m. until 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 September 2026.

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