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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Jun 2025

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Schools Building Projects

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I appreciate the Minister of State's attendance. This is an important issue. Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire is a primary school that has been located in temporary facilities - the Minister of State may struggle to believe this - for 23 years. To give a perspective on the human impact of that amount of time, the principal, Paul Hansard, a very fine principal and school teacher, attended the school himself. He went to secondary school, college, became a teacher and has been the principal for a number of years. That gives a perspective of how long the school has been in temporary accommodation. The cost is hundreds of thousands of euro every year. I will not get into the monetary cost of what has been spent by the State in providing inadequate education facilities for the finest young children and teachers in the country. I am biased because I am based in Dublin Central, but they are the finest. The páistí and múinteoirí are fantastic people.

It was my great privilege as a city councillor over a decade ago, with other councillors, to transfer land so that school could have a permanent, purpose-built building on Dominick Street. I made it number one on the agenda when Fianna Fáil went into government in 2020 that Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire have a purpose-built school. I give credit to Deputy Foley, because it was to our great satisfaction that, during the previous Government term, the purpose-built school commenced. The design was already prepared, with world-class architects and construction companies involved in designing and building the school. I have been down to the site; it is a challenging site. Any place in the inner city, particularly a brownfield site, will always be challenging. We are a medieval city, too, so there are always issues around foundations and archaeology. There are Luas lines and power lines going by. We live in the real world, us Dubs. We are very practical; we understand. We have all chosen to live in the city, bring up our kids in the city and have them educated in the heart of our great capital.

I cannot tell the Minister of State how depressing it is to say that, if he and I were to go down to Dominick Street today, no work would be going on. Building work has ceased. Those páistí and múinteoirí were promised a new 16-classroom, state-of-the-art, designed and built school that would be ready for them to move into this year. It was not entirely a surprise when we got word it was delayed because we had heard about it towards the end of last year. We were given assurances by the Department that everything that could be done was being done, a project management team was in place and everything to recover the lost time and accelerate the project would be done.

As I said, though, work has stopped and there is no prospect of a date by which the school can move into its new building. That is why I submitted this Commencement matter, to ask the Minister for Education and Youth to come to the House to update not just me but, more importantly, the school community. Teachers, pupils and parents want to know the plan to get builders back on site, recommence and accelerate construction and put a date in place by which they will move into their new school building. What will happen in the interim? At this point, the best guess is some time in 2026. I hope the Minister of State has an update.

I am flabbergasted that a school project could be going on that long. From my background as a quantity surveyor working in construction, there is something amiss. We will get to the bottom of it.

I am giving the Senator this answer on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth. Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire is an all-Irish national school serving the heart of Dublin city and is currently located in rented accommodation in Parnell Square. The project brief is for the construction of a 16-classroom primary school on a brownfield site purchased from the city council.

The Minister and the Department of Education and Youth are fully committed to ensuring the completion of a new school for Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire as soon as possible. The site is in an area of archaeological interest and abuts a protected structure. A number of issues arose on site early in the project, which is not unusual, given the nature of a brownfield city centre site, but this led to a delay. The issues included several services on site, for example, electrical lines and services related to the adjacent Luas lines, which had not been apparent until excavation began. Throughout this project, the Department has actively engaged with the design team and contractor to discuss matters and resolve issues as they arise to reduce any risk to the programme, but these unforeseen matters led to a delay in the early stages of the project.

In response to this, the Department sanctioned the appointment of project managers last year to minimise delays on the programme and ensure clear lines of communication were in operation. Good progress was initially made following the project managers' intervention, with significant visible progress being made on the structure. Since Christmas, however, progress has slowed significantly. Departmental officials have ongoing engagement with the contractor and the design team to resolve this issue.

However, the impact of this lower level of progress on the project in quarter 1 of 2025 necessitated a conciliation hearing to try to reach agreement on a solution to ensure the earliest possible delivery of the school, which is being delivered under the Government’s standard public works contract. A conciliation process was entered into by both parties on the project and, in accordance with standard practice and contractual requirements, is of a confidential nature. A temporary pause on works for now, under the suspension of works provisions of the contract, provides an opportunity to consider outcomes from the conciliation process and the best way forward for completion of the project. The notice of suspension of works was communicated to the contractor on 23 May in accordance with the provisions of the contract.

I thank the Minister of State. I appreciate that he has been sent with a reply from the Minister for Education and Youth. It is disappointing that the Minister herself is not here, considering the importance of this school project and the unacceptable delays with it. The reply the Minister of State has been provided with - I thank him for sharing it with the House - basically confirms everything we all know. I ask him to go back to the Minister and her officials and specifically request that she Minister will meet me, the other public representatives from Dublin Central and the parents committee to discuss with us how this issue is going to be resolved, how she is going to ensure that construction recommences, and what arrangements she is going to put in place for the school so that there is a date by which the construction will be completed and those involved know where they are going to be attending come September and into next year. I would appreciate if the Minister of State could facilitate that request.

Of course, I will do that. The Department of Education and Youth remains committed to continuing to provide enhanced support on this project, including the retention of the project manager until the school is completed, and is in regular contact with the school authorities, meeting approximately every six weeks or more frequently when required. While it is not possible to put an accurate timeframe on the completion of the school until negotiations have completed, it is now prudent to plan on the basis that the completion of the school will be unavoidably delayed.

Completion of the school as quickly as possible remains a key priority for the Minister and the Department. Departmental officials will also continue to work closely with the school authority to address any interim accommodation requirements for the school pending delivery of the permanent solution and are actively looking at solutions that can be progressed quickly for the new school year.

I will bring this issue to the Minister and request that she meet Senator Fitzpatrick, other representatives in the area and the school board of management to give an outline. It is important that a programme that can be adhered to going forward be put in place.

Care of the Elderly

I wish to raise the issue of boarding-out regulations, that is, the service for older people. Not everyone is familiar with boarding-out services. This is a service for older people who are mobile and generally in good health and who do not require nursing home care but who cannot live on their own because they might not quite manage or they do not want to because of loneliness and so forth. Instead, they can live in a house in the community, which is arranged by the HSE. A family can take up to six residents to live with them in their home. The HSE pays a certain amount for each resident and then each resident also pays a percentage of his or her pension, determined by the HSE.

This was a common enough practice the Cavan. There were eight boarding-out houses at one time. We are now down to one. That one has given notice to the HSE that it is going to finish up at the end of July. The reason it is finishing up and many of the others have stopped operating, not just in Cavan, but in other counties as well, is that the regulations introduced in 1993 have not been updated since. There was a review carried out about 15 years ago, but it was a very basic review and little changed. The statutory instrument - SI 225 of 1993 - and its regulations need to be updated. Providers need to see an increase in the amount that the HSE pays. They need to see that standardised across CHO areas because different areas were paying different amounts. They also need to see an increase in the amount that the resident pays. They would like to see the number of residents per household be increased from six to nine. They have also asked that tax exemptions, similar to the rent-a-room exemption, be introduced to make the scheme more attractive.

I have been raising this issue since 2020. I have raised it with the former Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, and then with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. I had many interactions with the latter about this. I submitted parliamentary questions, raised the matter on the floor of the Dáil and written to the Minister of State. At the time, she assured me that she was having her officials update the regulations, but nothing happened. I raised the matter with the current Minister of State, Kieran O'Donnell, and I have been hearing since March that he is going to do something about it, but nothing has happened.

It has come to crunch point now because the last provider is finishing up in just over a month. The residents living with her were in tears when they heard this because they have nowhere to go other than into a nursing home, which they do not want to go to. In terms of the cost to the State, the difference between putting them in a nursing home and keeping them boarded out is about €30,000 per year on average. It is huge. The HSE pays between €8,000 to €9,000 at the moment. In a nursing home, it would be paying a lot more than that. It could be anything up to €50,000 a year.

This scheme needs to be updated, revised, made more attractive and expanded because it is a very good scheme. I was talking to the residents living in the house the other day. Basically, they get their food and their board there, but they can come and go as they please. They can get a bus into Cavan town or Longford town. They can go to bingo. They can go to the pub for a drink. It is an independent life with just a little bit of support and so they are not living on their own. They are going to lose all of that now because successive Ministers have failed to update these regulations. The HSE has also failed to promote this scheme. It is a very good scheme that would suit a lot of people and keep them in their communities and out of nursing homes, able to live a supported but more or less independent life. That is what we need. It is something that is supported strongly by the charity ALONE as well.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. It is something we all need to be aware exists. A lot of us do not know about it.

The boarding-out scheme offers an alternative care option for older people who are no longer able to live independently in their own homes and wish to remain in their communities where they may otherwise be accommodated in residential care. The boarding-out scheme currently operates across three former community health organisation areas, namely, CHO 1, CHO 2, and CHO 8. The HSE has reported that there are only eight service providers operating the scheme across the country, with approximately 39 people availing of this service.

The most recent review of the scheme was completed by the HSE in 2017, which concluded that there was merit to further review of the scheme and its utility and viability, in rural areas in particular. The HSE review also noted possible challenges to the expansion of the scheme, particularly the current funding model. The review also noted that consideration should be given to the impact on the welfare of residents that might arise from the lack of requirements in relation to specific training or qualifications needed to be able to deliver the scheme.

The Minister of State with responsibility for older people and housing has requested that officials in the Department of Health consider this model of care and the regulations for this scheme as well as the rate of pay.

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, has also requested that they consider the implications of the rising costs for operations associated with running these types of accommodations. The Department is aware of the challenges being faced by operators currently providing boarding-out services and acknowledges the inflationary cost pressures associated with the service, particularly with regard to heating costs. Additionally, it is the Minister's view that consideration must be given to modernising the scheme. For some people with limited care needs, this scheme can represent a cost-effective alternative to residential care services, as the Senator said. A potential expansion of the scheme merits consideration and further exploration, particularly in rural communities.

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, told me that he was unable to be here because of questions to the Minister for rural affairs in the Dáil. What he is saying is really reassuring, but I have been hearing that for a number of years and nothing has been done. When I first raised this issue in 2021, 51 providers were involved. Now there are only eight. That tells you that people are leaving. It is not because they do not want to continue. It is because they cannot continue because of the cost pressures of inflation, with food, fuel and electricity having all gone up. The money to provide the service has not gone up in tandem with that. The provider I was talking to the other day said it was difficult for her to afford to pay staff. She is working round the clock and she is not even getting the minimum wage with the amount of money she is getting per hour. I hope something can be done on time before she exits this service, but I am not sure about that at this stage. If it can be looked at, updated and encouraged, more people might get involved if the scheme was more attractive.

As previously noted, the boarding-out scheme facilitates older people to remain in their communities, which is important, where their level of care or needs do not require them to enter residential care facilities. It is all about getting some support locally. While the use of the boarding-out scheme by the HSE has traditionally been small, the potential of the scheme merits consideration and further exploration. I acknowledge that it may benefit from measures to allow for greater flexibility in the payment mechanism too. The Government aims to provide and fund services that allow older people to remain independent and living in their own homes with dignity and independence for as long as possible. Where staying at home is no longer an option, the State supports individuals to access long-term residential care. This model provides an example of how we can support people with additional needs in the community so that they do not have to enter long-term care facilities.

We will continue to develop and improve health services in the regions to meet this objective and to ensure quality and patient safety. In this vein, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, has requested that his Department consider this model of care in the context of the Government's overall commitment to enhancing opportunities for older people to stay in their homes and communities longer. I will bring the Senator's issues back to the Minister of State.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. Tá brón orm, a Sheanadóir Ní Chuilinn. Níl an freagra réidh fós so leanfaimid ar aghaidh go dtí Ní i dTosach Suíonna 4.

Rail Network

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, to the Chamber and wish him continued success in his transport portfolio and as a Minister of State attending Cabinet. As Members will be aware, catering facilities on trains were stopped during Covid. They returned on a limited number of services, specifically Dublin to Cork. Irish Rail had committed to a full restoration of catering services by the end of 2024, but obviously that did not happen. Last month, Irish Rail and the National Transport Authority, NTA, stated that there was not sufficient funding to restore catering services. In 2025, if there is not sufficient funding to restore catering services, we need to know what is required, because it is an unacceptable answer as far as I am concerned.

Catering services are an essential and, frankly, basic part of train travel for commuters and tourists alike. Ireland is currently the only country in western Europe which does not provide catering services, which is not an acceptable standard. We want to promote public transport and make it more attractive. We are providing funding to do that in every budget, yet at the same time, we are providing rail services where people cannot get a cup of tea or coffee, something that they could do, as the Minister of State is well aware, 25, 35 or 40 years ago. It is entirely illogical. Especially for those who rarely use the train, it is the easiest way we can increase usage of public transport, as the Minister of State will be aware, by making irregular customers travel more often. For that to happen, we should aim to provide the best experience possible.

We also need to ensure that we are giving tourists the best experience in every way. Obviously tourism is an important sector for Ireland. It is a sector in which we were doing well for a long time, but we cannot take it for granted. Tourists have a basic expectation of being able to get water, a mineral or some food on trains, and we need to meet those criteria. I commute from Galway on the train and a considerable number of people who have been sitting close to me in the past 18 months have expressed surprise and disappointment, especially on the early morning trains, that they cannot get a cup of coffee, a sandwich or whatever it might be. In my opinion, there is a health and safety aspect to this, where if a person falls ill, which has happened, or if there is a medical emergency, there is not even access to a bottle of water on the train.

There has been a troubling lack of transparency on the issue. Surely the NTA or Irish Rail should be able to clarify what funding is required to restore the service so that at least all information is available, but that does not seem to be the case, or certainly the information is not being provided. I raised this previously, in 2021, and got commitments on that occasion. I have no doubt the Minister of State will be bringing good news shortly. The situation should not be tolerated for this long and I urge Government to take action to address it immediately.

I thank Senator Crowe for the question. It is an issue which we have discussed within the Department. It is an important issue because, for me, the experience of a passenger on public transport is key to getting them to repeat using it and trying to reduce the number of cars. I would like to clarify that the Minister for Transport has responsibility for policy and overall funding of public transport, but neither the Minister nor his officials are involved in the day-to-day operation of public transport services, such as catering services, which are an operational matter for Iarnród Éireann. That said, I can assure the Senator that Iarnród Éireann worked hard to restore catering services where possible following the conclusion of the Covid-19 restrictions and engaged extensively with a range of operators in the market in order to do so. However, with costs of up to four times the previous levels quoted, Iarnród Éireann has had to work to deliver the service on a limited basis and within available funding.

Iarnród Éireann successfully restored catering on the Dublin to Cork route with Irish company Carriage Food Services Limited providing this service on an interim basis while a national tender was undertaken. Onboard catering is also available on the Dublin to Belfast Enterprise service, jointly operated by Iarnród Éireann and Translink. This is provided under a separate contract. As an alternative measure, I am assured that Iarnród Éireann is working to enhance retail and catering offerings at stations, and customers are also allowed to bring their own food and beverages, excluding alcohol, on board.

A full tender process was undertaken for catering services across the intercity network. While costs have been determined, Irish Rail has only been in a position to contract catering on the Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Belfast routes within the current public service obligation, PSO, funding arising from this tender process. The company continues to engage with the National Transport Authority and Department of Transport about scope for any further funding to support this reintroduction, if at all possible, in the future.

The Department of Transport secured €658 million in funding for the PSO and TFI Local Link services in budget 2025, an increase from €613 million in 2024. From this, we extended the 20% fare reduction and 90-minute fare on PSO services so that everyone would benefit until the end of 2025. Equally, we have extended the 50% reduction available for young adults on board the PSO and commercial bus services until the end of 2025. We are supporting new and enhanced bus services and rail services too. Further measures introduced this year are the extension of free travel for children from five years to eight years of age and, most recently, the roll-out of the NTA distance-based and more equitable fares strategy, with significant reductions in fares for many as a result.

Therefore funding of the public transport service is focused on existing fare initiatives and service provision, such as BusConnects in the five cities, expanding town services in the large towns, and rolling out Connecting Ireland in rural Ireland. These measures are working to enhance factors such as frequency, accessibility and reliability in attracting and retaining the users. Therefore funding for additional catering costs on intercity rail services is not available at this time.

I can assure the House that this Government is committed to delivering an accessible, reliable and affordable public transport system for all our citizens, including children. Under the programme for Government, our commitments include the roll-out of contactless payments, for which the contract has already been awarded, keeping fares affordable, and examining the future expansion of free public transport for children. I assure the Senator that the Minister for Transport is committed to making improvements to public transport services while at the same time ensuring that our system remains financially sustainable in the long term.

I thank Minister of State, Deputy Canney, for his detailed response. I find it a little bit disingenuous that the Dublin to Belfast and Dublin to Cork lines have been sorted out but we are nearly forgotten about in the west. As a leading Minister of State in the west, I know it is a high priority for him, but to say it is an operational issue, I do not know. The trains are packed and, in fairness, there has been significant funding put in to bring down the cost of fares, and that is very welcome. We need to complete the process. If it is good enough for Cork and Belfast to and from Dublin, then I do not see why the Galway to Dublin line cannot be rectified. We are the only country in western Europe where customers on intercity rail services do not have a catering option. I am referring to the Galway-Dublin line. The handling of this issue by Irish Rail with broken promises to restore the catering services by the end of 2024 and its limited communication is unacceptable at best. I ask the Minister for Transport to intervene and do his level best to return the catering services to the Galway to Dublin line.

As I have said, the Department has engaged with the NTA and Iarnród Éireann on the matter of restoring catering services on intercity services and, where possible, services have been restored, with catering now available on the Belfast and Cork lines. At present, due to funding constraints, there are no plans to reintroduce catering services on all other rail lines as funding is currently focused on other measures such as improving frequency, reliability and keeping fares low. While it has been possible to restore some services, there is a significant cost attached to the provision of such catering services and the income is much less than the cost, resulting in funding for such provision not being available. As I advised earlier, the costs are up to four times the previous levels quoted before Covid-19. larnród Eireann is working to deliver the service on a limited basis and within available funding. Accordingly, Irish Rail is not in a position to offer other services at this time. The Department will continue to engage with the company.

I am confident that we all agree it is essential that the Government continues to invest in our public transport network and that we are supportive of the Government's commitment towards delivering accessible, affordable and reliable public transport throughout the country. A number of improvements have been made to intercity services to meet growing demand, with Iarnród Éireann deploying all available fleet during peak times. In 2024, 41 additional intercity carriages were introduced, boosting capacity on the Sligo, Galway, Westport and Belfast lines. It is important to note that Ceannt Station in Galway is being developed and Limerick station has been developed, and I hope to visit it next week or the week after. We are investing in the infrastructure because we have such demand for public transport and we need to be able to meet that demand and keep people interested in using it. The catering is another part of that but the priority is to get services and frequency right. We are doing the passing loop in Oranmore to create more frequency in and out of Galway. Under the all-Ireland rail review, we hope we will be looking at the expansion of the rail network throughout the country. There is a lot happening and this is part of it. I will be talking to my officials again on it.

Health Services

Gabhaim leithscéal leis an Seanadóir Ní Chuilinn; níl freagra againn. I do apologise most profusely to Senator Ní Chuilinn. We do not have a response to her question from the Department. I just want to say on the Senator's behalf that it is unacceptable. If a Senator goes to the trouble of tabling a Commencement matter, there should be an answer here for them. I apologise again. I will ask that the Cathaoirleach prioritises her question.

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh Gníomhach. I understand agus níl an locht ort ná ar an Aire Stáit atá anseo inniu. I do want to say I am disappointed. I have raised this issue twice in the Seanad. It has been submitted a couple of times as a Commencement matter. It was finally chosen today. On behalf of the one-, two- and three-year-old children in Dublin 12 who have never had a developmental check, I do hope that, when the Department does take the Commencement matter, the response is considered.

I apologise as well on behalf of the Department. I do not know what happened. I was chosen today to do Front Bench cover, but it is unacceptable that the Senator cannot do her job to raise an issue with the Government. I apologise on behalf of the Government. I hope she gets priority number one at the next Commencement Matters session.

Before we suspend, I thank Senator Noonan for chairing. In all my time in Seanad Éireann, I have never come across a case where a Commencement matter did not arrive. This is the first time in nearly two decades that this has happened. Whenever Senator Ní Chuilinn wants it next week, we expect that it will be the first item on the agenda and that the Minister will arrive with the answer to it. We will write to the Department and we will outline that the Seanad expects that, when the four Commencement matters are sent over, the Departments reply back to the Seanad. The fact that the reply never showed up at all I have never seen happen in two decades. I would say this is the first time anyone in the Seanad has ever heard of a response not arriving. I find it extraordinary that a Department did not follow the process and procedure. We will have that answer for the Senator from the Minister next week.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.07 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.32 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 10.07 a.m. and resumed at 10.32 a.m.
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