Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate – Dáil Éireann (33rd Dáil) – Thursday, 13 Jun 2024

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Architectural Heritage

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue again and for permitting me to raise it on many occasions in the past. I also thank the Minister of State for coming into the House to reply. I thank him for his work since his appointment in attempting to resolve this particular issue. Despite his best efforts, the Castletown House saga continues. It is a bit like "The Forsyte Saga", a programme on television once upon a time. Every time a solution is identified, there is equally an obstacle that creates a problem.

One of the issues at the present time is as follows. The Minister of State rightly attempted to negotiate with the owner of adjoining lands who has an interest in the proceedings here. In response to that, the landowner decided to put a gateway across the previously used access from the M4, which was a clear indication of what was likely to happen in the future.

That gateway was not put there for nothing; it is there for a particular purpose. We all observe the rights of private and public landowners, property owners, homeowners, etc., at all times. There is no attempt here to usurp those rights. What is at risk is this. In my opinion, the State rightly spent €25 million in recent years to facilitate the works at Castletown House. It was unwise of the State to spend that kind of money if it was not happy that access would be guaranteed. What is the sense in that? We would have to fly in like they did during the Berlin standoff that took place many years ago, when the only way into the city was by aeroplane.

This matter involves the people of Celbridge, members of the general public who use Castletown estate for recreation, those who have an interest in works of art or historical houses and the individuals who have worked in Castletown House. Some of their descendants are still around. I remember them well from when they worked in Castletown House. The situation has to be resolved and cannot go on forever. The State cannot allow itself to be dictated to by an adjoining equal tenant or property owner. The State has rights as well. The State has the right to visit and revisit its property and the property of the public. It should join those rights with the general public, members of which should be able to go to and from the estate without having their rights tested and challenged.

There were a number of incidents there in recent times, although I do not propose to go into them here. These were tragic incidents as well and they have been brought to the fore by virtue of the circumstances that prevail at the location. I ask the Minister of State at this stage to think really seriously about legal action to determine the State’s right to visit its property as well as to allow the public, with the permission of the State, to visit that property as well so it can enjoy the facilities that are available there. This is supported by all the public representatives and all the newly elected councillors to that area who are well versed on the subject. All support is very welcome. The Minister of State needs to know that he has the support of the public representatives in attempting to determine an outcome.

The last point I want to make is this. One of the outcomes that was suggested was that the old road that goes onto the Main Street in Celbridge could be used as an access point in the future. It is not so. As the Ceann Comhairle will well know, the traffic situation has changed dramatically in the past 250 or 300 years. Traffic has increased and using the old road is not an option.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Minister of State for being here to deal with this matter.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

Once again, I thank my esteemed colleague, Deputy Durkan, for his long-standing, genuine and heartfelt interest in Castletown House and estate. As I have said previously, it is something on which the Deputy has worked over a considerable period through our parliamentary system, and he has dealt with it publicly as well.

I take this opportunity to thank all members of the Castletown House and estate stakeholders working group, of which Deputy Durkan and his fellow public representatives are members. This working group was initiated by my predecessor. I have had three meetings to date on this matter, but I have been in this role for a relatively short period. I want to resolve it. I want to find a proper and normal way to get Castletown estate open to the public. An element of that is getting the staff back in. There is a number of moving parts. It is not straightforward, and Deputy Durkan will be aware of that. I very much value the input of the working group. Anything I have done I have done with input from the working group and public representatives in order to make sure that everyone is aware of what I am doing.

As I have stated previously, the owners of the M4 lands erected a gate across the entrance of the boundary between the section of the privately owned road and the access further up by the local authority. This has been used by the visitors to Castletown House and the staff to access the estate by means of a road and a temporary car park, which was previously used by the OPW under licence with the previous owner. However, the placing of a gate on private land is not a matter over which the OPW has any control. The owner of the lands is entitled to control access to them as it sees fit, subject to compliance with the planning process.

I have a couple of points to make. I made a commitment to the working group at the previous meeting that I would approach the landowners, which I have done, and that I would further engage with them, which I am doing. I agreed that once I had met with the landowners, I would re-engage with the working group. That was the agreement for the structure.

I have a couple of comments to make in respect of the specific point the Deputy raised. In fairness, he has been very consistent. This is a matter about which he feels strongly. I want to deal with two components. First, as the Deputy will be aware, the OPW sought legal advice about the right of way over the lands formally managed under licence. As entry to and over lands was by permission, no such rights have accrued and therefore it cannot enforce a right of way by injunction or any other means over these privately owned lands. That is the legal advice we have received.

We are to remain engaged with the working group. The local community has requested that Kildare County Council consider recognising right of way over these lands, but I am not aware of its progress to date. Kildare County Council, with whom I have no doubt Deputy Durkan is in touch, will be best to provide an update on that. At the most recent meeting with the working group, I gave a commitment that I would meet with Kildare County Council about the overall situation at Castletown estate. I am in the process of arranging this. At the meeting to which I refer, I stated that I would engage further with the landowners and that we would then hold a meeting. I provided a health and safety risk assessment, which was carried out by a qualified firm on a limited, time-bound access for a small number of vehicles on Lime Avenue. That was to get staff back in. I provided that for the consideration of the working group. Part of the OPW’s policy is to seek to reunite the historic Castletown demesne with the house and lands in the care of the State. It has had several opportunities to purchase the lands. More recently, it was outbid on the open market value.

On the particular point Deputy Durkan raises, I have further work to do. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me latitude. Deputy Durkan is probably referring to the commencement order for certain heritage related provisions under the Historic and Archaeological Heritage and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2023. That legislation commenced on 31 May, so it has just commenced. My officials have been in contact with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage about any implications relating to the OPW and Castletown House. I again gave a commitment to follow up on this. We have been advised that section 188 of the Act sets out the powers of which relevant authorities, including the Office of Public Works, can avail in order to perform its substantial functions under the Act. However, as section 188(1) sets out, the powers of further relevant authorities under this section can only come into effect when such powers are considered necessary for the relevant authorities to fulfil other functions specified under the Act. Therefore, the commencement of section 188 alone would not automatically permit the Office of Public Works to retain access to the property in question through privately owned land. Section 188 would only be of assistance if other provisions of the Act had been commenced, in particular provisions relating to the register of national monuments as defined in the Act and if Castletown House was made subject to those provisions.

It is all a matter of process. The necessary administrative measures to enable commencing the Act on a phased basis are under way. I realise that substantial work is required to commence the provisions of the Act, particularly those pertaining to the register of national monuments. It is unlikely to commence immediately. We are told that powers, including by way of compulsory purchase order, are provided for in the Act. Again, however, Castletown House would have to be entered into the registry of monuments.

I know I am relying on the indulgence and patience of the Ceann Comhairle. I want to go through a process. At the most recent meeting, I committed: first, to continue to engage with the landowners; second, that I would look at Batty Langley Lodge as an access point for staff; third, to follow up with Kildare County Council; fourth, to look at the feedback on the proposal I put out on the health and safety risk assessment regarding temporary access only for staff; and, fifth, to look at the other Act to see what might be available to us in the context of securing right of access.

I want to stick with the process but I very much take on board the Deputy's points, so I await his observations.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State for going to the efforts he has gone to and I again thank the Ceann Comhairle for facilitating this debate. I understand the problem but, unfortunately, some of us have been around Castletown Estate when it was in its previous ownership, in Connolly-Carew's time. We got to know all the people who worked on the estate and we listened to their queries over a number of years. We got along with them and they are decent, nice people. There is no need for anybody to impose a restriction on the people who have enjoyed the facilities at Castletown all their lives, particularly given the State now owns 230 acres of the lands and the house. The State is now an equal landowner. If two private landowners were in dispute about a right of way, it would have been resolved long ago, and it would have to be resolved.

Reference was made to another case in the country, in County Sligo, where a private landowner had always owned the property. These two cases are not analogous at all. He or his predecessor had always owned the property. In this case, however, there are two independent landowners, namely, the State and a private landowner. The question has to be asked as to who wins the case. In the heel of the hunt, it will have to be the right of the State to go to and from its property and not to skulk around corners surreptitiously trying to gain access in a way that will be allowed by a third party. That is not something we readily accede to in County Kildare or elsewhere in the country.

I compliment the Minister of State on his efforts to date, but we are not going away and the matter is not going to go away. We respectfully request that the State and its guests be entitled to go to and from the property without impedance or restriction and that the status quo be restored in that regard.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy and ask the Minister of State to respond briefly. We have gone over time.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I again thank the Deputy. I reiterate I want to stick with the process, as I agreed with the working group and the Deputy. We will continue to speak to the landowners, look at Batty Langley Lodge for temporary access for staff, examine the legal case the Deputy made about the right of access and consider the Kildare campus. I am exploring every conceivable avenue to work with everyone to find a resolution to this. We all want the estate to be reopened and we are very conscious of the issues that are arising. I want to continue to work in a collaborative way with everyone to seek a resolution and I will work with the Department and the OPW to achieve that. I look forward to the next meeting of the working group for further updates.

Septic Tanks

An Ceann Comhairle

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

Like many of my rural colleagues, I was giddy with excitement at the 2023 Ard-Fheis when the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, announced changes to the septic tank grant scheme-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it not amazing the things that get us worked up?

Deputy Joe Flaherty

Indeed. I have been living ever since with disappointment and a feeling of being unfulfilled, however, given numerous constituents have come to me and pointed out the shortcomings of the scheme. Just 19 grants have been paid out this year by the Department to householders with septic tanks and the Department is coming under increasing pressure to revise the eligibility and application process, which many people, me included, argue is too restrictive and convoluted and does not address one of the biggest challenges in rural Ireland, namely, the inadequacy and shortcomings of our septic tank network, with almost 500,000 such features in Ireland. Disappointingly, the Minister has stated he is unwilling, at least at this time, to look at making further changes to the septic tank scheme, but I am going to use this brief debate to try to impress on him the need to make those changes and to highlight the shortcomings.

Dr. Matt Crowe, the chair of the Water Forum, has stated the issue needs close monitoring. He says the 19 applications constitute a very small number given the high number of septic tanks we suspect are not functioning properly. At the moment, to be eligible to apply, a home must have been preselected as part of the national inspection plan or be in a high-status objective catchment area or a priority area for action. I appreciate that the State cannot pay for everybody, but the criteria and the process have to be made much easier for people to seek out the grant. Moreover, householders, many of whom are elderly, have to pay in advance for the works and then recoup the grants, which is a further deterrent. Dr. Matt Crowe has argued it would be much more effective if the grant were opened to everyone but with payments graded in value depending on the urgency of the problem. As mentioned, there are almost 500,000 septic tanks in the country, and the EPA reported last month that 45% of inspections had failed to meet the required standard.

This is one of the biggest challenges we have in rural Ireland. People probably cannot go down a rural lane without getting the stench of a septic tank. It is an acquired skill to be able to distinguish between slurry and a septic tank, but if you live in rural Ireland, you will be familiar with the nuanced difference. It is a perplexing problem and a source of immense disappointment to us as rural TDs. If we look at our diaries to see who is coming in to meet us and we see someone scheduled to come to talk about a septic tank grant, our hearts truly sink because these are people going out of their way to do what they need to do and what is right for the environment to address a shortcoming in something. When they were granted planning 30 years ago, it made eminent sense at that time to give people septic tanks, but technology has moved on. We now have much better systems and we should be making it much easier for people to replace those septic tanks, rehabilitate them and put right the issues that are there.

At the moment, based on the current runway, we are going to pay out only about €500,000 in septic tank grants this year, which is an inadequate response to a major issue for us in rural Ireland. I hope this debate will be an opportunity to impress on the Minister and his officials in the Department the need to revisit this because it is a major issue for rural Ireland, those 500,000 homes and, specifically, the 45% of those septic tanks that are inadequate and are causing environmental concerns in rural Ireland.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue and providing me with the opportunity to address the matter on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The policy of providing grant support for domestic wastewater treatment systems, or septic tank grants, arises from the need to address damage being done to water quality in sensitive areas, in particular, and in areas of the greatest environmental priority to protect human health and the environment.

The purpose of the grants is to provide financial assistance to households for works to septic tanks to protect human health and the environment and to help Ireland meet our commitments under the river basin management plan. Three individual types of grants are available to householders and their purpose is to provide financial assistance to households to repair, upgrade or replace a defective septic tank. The grants are not general in application and are available only if the septic tank has failed an inspection under the national inspection plan and an advisory notice has issued or if it is located in either a prioritised area for action or a high-status objective catchment area as defined in the river basin management plan.

Following a review of the scheme in 2023, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, announced substantial improvements to the terms and conditions of all three grants. An increase to the funding available for households was agreed, from €5,000 to €12,000, and there was a removal of the requirements for the purposes of the grant for households to have registered their wastewater treatment system with the local authority.

The modifications to the conditions and levels of the grants available came into effect from 1 January of this year. It is likely the changes made will encourage more householders to seek and avail of the grant and consequently help reduce the risk of environmental impact from defective tanks. However, the grant support being provided is focused on the areas of greatest environmental priority to protect human health and the environment and is not general in application.

Deputy Joe Flaherty

I thank the Minister of State and appreciate him standing in on behalf of the Department of housing. It is somewhat disappointing a Minister was not available to take the question but I am sure the officials will relay my dismay and frustration with this grant scheme. The reality is that in the case of County Longford only a small number of inspections, possibly three, are carried out over the course of the year, so it is virtually impossible to access this grant in Longford. I am familiar with one elderly lady who accessed the grant last year and her quandary is that she does not have the €12,000 to pay in advance before she can get those works carried out.

This is a major environmental challenge for us in rural Ireland. We are hammering farmers on the nitrates issue. We are blaming farmers for the impact on water quality right across Ireland and making it a major issue for the farming community. Yet we have 500,000 septic tanks in every county, parish and area across rural Ireland, many of which are defective, and for a payment in the region of €12,000 to €15,000, in most instances, we can put these septic tanks right. If we are serious about the environment, and we have made it a pillar of this Government that we are serious about the environment, we need to make a strategic decision and act now on septic tanks. It is an investment in the future. It is a small price to pay. This year, it looks like we will spend less than €500,000 on the septic tanks grant. It is an indictment of us as a Government, it is an indictment on our commitment to the environment and it is an indictment on how we treat people in rural Ireland.

A young lady came to me a number of months ago and she was trying to access the septic tank grant. She is a hard-working young woman who works as a vet. She has never turned to the Government or to society for anything at any stage in her life. She thought she could access this grant but was told no and that she would not even be selected for an inspection. It is truly disheartening for people in rural Ireland to be treated like this when it comes to septic tanks. I urge my colleagues in government to join me in trying to seek a reversal of the current guidelines for this scheme.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I thank Deputy Flaherty for his comments and will relay them to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien.

Grant support is available for households where there are identified water pollution risks. However, it should be noted that, under the Water Services Act, the owner of a system is responsible for its maintenance and for keeping it in good repair. The local authorities have a key role in the administration of the grants in their areas, and they work with the EPA to implement the national inspection plan. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is satisfied that the review completed and the modifications made will result in an increase of applications in 2024 and beyond. He has no plans to make further changes to the qualifying criteria.

Animal Welfare

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Coveney wishes to discuss matters relating to horse welfare and food safety at Shannonside Foods in Straffan, County Kildare. We were all horrified with what we saw on television screens last evening. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, for being here to deal with this matter.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Last night's "RTÉ Investigates" programme was, to say the least, uncomfortable watching. There is a lot to consider in the context of a European horsemeat trade that needs our attention in this House, but I want to focus for today on what we saw in Shannonside Foods Limited in Straffan. It was completely unacceptable and we need to deal with it very firmly. There was a horse in a crush being punched in the face, horses being beaten and whipped with a long length of piping, horses being allowed to fall and injure themselves in filthy conditions, and injured horses being shot on the ground to put them down in totally inappropriate circumstances. We saw what looked like, and I say "what looked like" because I do not want to prejudice any legal case in the future, horses having microchips inserted in their necks before slaughter to effectively change their identity, presumably to allow them to enter the human food chain inappropriately and, I suspect, illegally to increase their value. We saw completely inappropriate and, I also suspect, illegal treatment of animals of various ages and conditions.

I have been a Minister in the Department of agriculture and I know how abattoirs and how holding systems work. I have been around horses all of my life. They are amazing animals and they are, we should not forget, what makes it possible to have a horse industry in this country that is worth billions of euro per year and employs approximately 30,000 people, so we need to protect it. First and foremost, we need to protect these precious animals but second, we need to protect the reputation of an industry which is fragile today.

I want to ask three questions. First, while the filming of the cruelty and fraud we saw last night was in a holding building rather than in the actual abattoir nearby, I find it hard to believe that Department of agriculture vets raised no suspicions of maltreatment of horses given their regular presence at the slaughter facility close by. Have there been any reports from our Department vets raising concerns about welfare or identity fraud? This is, after all, the only operating horse abattoir in the country, so surely experienced vets would have seen horses in the kind of condition we saw yesterday coming into the abattoir and would have raised questions. Second, is Shannonside Foods Limited in Straffan still operating this week as an equine slaughter facility under the existing management? If so, why? It should not be operating until we have a lot more clarity in terms of the investigation that is under way. Third, will the Minister please outline in some detail the penalties in law for this level of animal cruelty and potential fraud in the context of falsifying a horse's microchip pre-slaughter in the inappropriate and, I suspect, illegal way we saw on film last night?

This issue needs to be addressed with a firmness and urgency necessary to reassure the public and those involved in the horse industry that the Irish State will not tolerate wanton cruelty to horses or allow an illegal compromising of the human food chain for profit given the fact that much of the horsemeat that leaves this country is for human consumption in other parts of Europe.

I have other questions but I would like those three addressed initially.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Last night's "RTÉ Investigates", which I also watched, showed really horrifying footage of welfare abuses on a farm premises adjacent to the sole horse slaughter plant in Ireland, as well as potential breaches of traceability rules in Ireland and member states across the EU. The behaviour seen last night is utterly unacceptable. It is disgusting and entirely inconsistent with the framework of EU and national laws that are there to protect the welfare of animals. I am certain the vast majority of decent people who care for horses and the vast majority of decent people who were watching the television last night were horrified by the scenes that were broadcast. It is important to stress that what we saw was potentially criminal behaviour by a number of individuals.

The Department of agriculture has already started an investigation into the matter with the support of An Garda Síochána. The full force of the law will be brought to bear in these matters. Protecting animal welfare is extremely important and the Department takes its responsibilities very seriously. There are in excess of 200 authorised officers under the animal welfare Act who carry out welfare inspections in every county. A total of 167 prosecutions have been taken under the Act since it entered into law in 2013 and a number of other investigations are ongoing.

As Deputy Coveney said, the protection of the integrity of the food chain is vitally important and the Department applies a systematic and robust series of controls at the slaughter plants in Straffan to verify compliance. These include having a full-time presence providing oversight in the slaughter facility on the days on which slaughter takes place; the carrying out of veterinary ante mortem and post mortem examinations of the horses; and undertaking identity and traceability checks carried out in accordance with our legal obligations. Ultimately, it is the case that even when these robust systems are in place, illegal activity can occur if someone is prepared to engage in fraud.

The Department of agriculture takes such matters extremely seriously and will continue to investigate and prosecute for breaches or fraudulent activity related to animal welfare and identification. The activities shown on last night's report as regards identification and traceability show what would appear to be illegal activities which impact on traceability both at home and across Europe. It is clear that a collective effort across the EU among member states and the Commission is required to further improve the traceability system. The Department is committed to helping that process along with our European colleagues and the European Commission.

In terms of equine traceability, Ireland operates within the requirements set down in EU law and our system is fully in compliance with the requirements. The Department of agriculture has made improving equine traceability a priority in recent years and, as a result, there have been a number of significant advances in the traceability of horses.

A central equine database was introduced in 2013. Improved security features on equine passports were put in place in 2014, and the Department made it a legal requirement in that year to register all equine premises. These developments, particularly the recent ones relating to technology and e-passports, will continue to move equine traceability forward. However, it is clear that where individuals are determined to breach the law, they will try to do so and it is up to the Department and An Garda Síochána to ensure this full investigation results in the full force of the law being applied to anybody who broke the law in these egregious and outrageous circumstances.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I believe the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and the Department are taking this very seriously. However, I have a few questions. Regarding my question about Shannonside Foods Limited and whether it should continue to be operating, my view is that it should close until we have more clarity about the evidence we saw last night. If it is to remain open, it needs to be under the supervision of the Department and Department vets, and I think this is possible. If closure means we have a glut of horses that need to be slaughtered and cannot be, there are also issues there that need to be addressed, but under no circumstances should this company continue to operate as it did under the management and staff we saw on our screens last night until a final investigation is concluded.

Do we have a timeline for that investigation and the piece of work that clearly needs to be done by Ireland in conjunction with other EU countries regarding some of the other issues that were raised? Let us not forget that the food fraud division of the European Commission has now issued an alert for horses slaughtered in Ireland, Italy and Spain because it is convinced there is evidence that animals that should have been removed from the food chain have not been. In other words, their identities have been falsified. That in itself is a reputational issue that needs a very clear and firm response from the Department and the State generally.

My final question is complicated but is one that needs to be raised. What conversations have taken place with our counterparts in Northern Ireland about ensuring the trade in horses is not happening inappropriately or illegally, taking advantage of an open border on the island of Ireland? Some valid questions were raised about this issue last night that need to be addressed comprehensively. This is an opportunity for us to do a comprehensive job on how horses are treated when they are at the end of their lives. We have many horses each year, especially coming from the racing industry and the horse sport industry, and we need to ensure they are treated with respect and that when they are put down, it is done in an acceptable way that is transparent. There is much work to do on the back of the evidence we saw last night.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The footage shown last night was appalling and the actions of the individuals shown are abhorrent and completely unacceptable. Deputy Coveney raised some interesting questions. I am reluctant to go too far in light of potential prosecutions and the Department's determination to bring the full force of the law to bear. However, I have no doubt that horse butchers in European countries where horsemeat is consumed will certainly be thinking twice about purchasing where they cannot be sure about traceability. This is something that is very important from a national point of view. The welfare of horses is protected by legislation, and where breaches or shortcomings are identified, appropriate enforcement action is taken. This will happen here.

Some of the footage shown last night demonstrates how the EU equine traceability rules can be circumvented by those who want to engage in illegal activity. We need to work together with our colleagues to ensure we can improve this system. The Department is committed to assisting in that process along with other EU member states and the Commission.

The Department has initiated a comprehensive investigation with help from An Garda Síochána. This investigation is active and ongoing and should not be prejudiced so that the full force of the law can be applied. We need to make sure that nothing is said in this Chamber that could damage that.

An Ceann Comhairle

As someone who lives in Kildare and loves horses and animals in general, I feel compelled to say that we appreciate the Minister of State being here and we know he is not responsible in that Department, but I would think that the public outside looking in at this debate would want one particular question answered. Is that place - that horror hole - open today doing what we saw on TV last night? Most people would like to see that answered. We appreciate fully that, because of legal constraints, the Minister of State may not be able to answer, but I suspect that for members of the public looking in, it is precisely this question, as put so succinctly by Deputy Coveney, that they would like to hear answered.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

As I am not in the Department of agriculture, I am not in a position to answer that but I will make sure that question gets put to the Minister for agriculture as a matter of urgency.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 13 Jun 2024