Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 2026

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Deer Management: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

No apologies have been received.

I wish to bring to the attention of the witnesses that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as those giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in public meetings from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed. At this point everybody participating is in the room and no member or witness is online.

I welcome our witnesses this afternoon. We have previously been following up on the situation around wild deer and we want to take that conversation on further and get the perspective of our guests today. From the County and City Management Association we have Mr. Barry Kehoe, chief executive of Westmeath County Council and chair of the CCMA transport infrastructure and networks committee, Westmeath County Council. From the Road Safety Authority I welcome Ms. Alison Coleman, acting CEO and director for people, development and culture; and Mr. Michael Rowland, director of research, standards and assurance. From FBD Insurance we welcome Mr. Sean Kelleher, chief underwriting officer; Mr. Stewart Gavin, head of product; and Mr. Ciaran Roche, risk manager. From the National Association of Regional Game Councils we welcome Mr. Shane O'Connor, chairman of the deer committee; and Mr. John Butler, vice chairman. The opening statements have been circulated. I will give five minutes to go through those statements and then we will proceed to questions and answers. We will start with Mr. Barry Kehoe of the CCMA.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

I am here today in my capacity as chair of the CCMA transport, infrastructure and networks committee. I am happy to offer the perspective of local government on an issue that, while primarily a matter of wildlife management and agricultural policy, has direct consequences for two functions that county councils discharge: the management of the public road network and the stewardship of the natural environment. The committee has already heard from the deer management strategy group and from the FRS. I want to acknowledge the substantial body of work that has been done, including the national strategy, the establishment of 15 deer management units, the DeerConnect data system now in live testing, and the significant increase in licensed culling activity. It is a serious and welcome response to a serious problem, and we have an interest in seeing it succeed.

On road safety, local authorities are responsible for the vast majority of the road network. It is on rural roads, often narrow and unmarked, where deer-vehicle collisions are most likely to occur and where the human cost is greatest. The public consultation conducted by the deer management strategy group found that road safety was identified as a primary impact by 81% of respondents, equal in weight to farming and forestry concerns. Our primary response tool is the erection of "deer crossing" warning signs at known crossing points. We do this based on local knowledge and often in consultation with landowners, An Garda Síochána and, where relevant, the National Parks and Wildlife Service. However, signage is a mitigation measure, not a solution. It does not address the population dynamic that drives the collision risk.

What I would ask this committee to consider is a more structured data-sharing arrangement between local authorities and the deer management unit co-ordinators now operating in the field. The DeerConnect system being developed by FRS offers a potential vehicle for this. Various parties, including An Garda Síochána and the Road Safety Authority, hold records of collision locations, road categories and seasonal patterns that could usefully inform where DMU activity is prioritised. Equally, DMU co-ordinators will develop a picture of population movement corridors that road authorities could use to target signage and speed management more precisely.

On biodiversity, local authorities have a particular statutory responsibility to secure the protection of the abundance of biodiversity that exists across the country. Every local authority is required under Ireland’s 4th National Biodiversity Action Plan 2023–2030 to prepare and implement a local biodiversity action plan by 2026. Many authorities have already adopted these plans, and all are working toward delivery. These plans commit local government to protecting, conserving, and enhancing biodiversity across each county as a whole, on council-owned lands, on private lands, and across the networks of designated sites, natural heritage areas, and ecological corridors that together form the natural environment of our counties.

It is against this backdrop that I want to be direct about the impact of unchecked deer numbers on biodiversity, and not only on council-managed sites. The browsing pressure that an expanding deer population exerts on young saplings, ground flora, hedgerow species, and semi-natural grasslands undermines habitat quality across both public and private land. The public consultation again identified that as a significant issue. Our local biodiversity action plans commit to protecting trees and hedgerows, supporting native woodland regeneration, restoring habitats and so on in accordance with the EU nature restoration law. There is a fundamental inconsistency in requiring local authorities to deliver on those commitments while deer browsing pressure on young native planting, hedgerow regeneration, and sensitive grassland and wetland habitats goes unmanaged at landscape scale. Local biodiversity action plans cannot succeed in isolation from wider land management policy.

From a biodiversity perspective, local government welcomes the population management measures being implemented under the national programme. We ask that a practical step that would cost nothing be progressed, namely that the 15 deer management units, as they develop their local evidence base through the DeerConnect system and the work of their on-the-ground co-ordinators, be asked to share relevant data with local authority biodiversity officers. This would strengthen the evidence base for the habitat impact assessment and monitoring programmes that our biodiversity action plans require.

In conclusion, local authorities are not wildlife management bodies. We are not here to advocate for any particular approach to licensing or culling. That is properly the domain of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and this committee. What we are here to say is that the negative consequences of an expanding deer population fall, in part, on the road network and on the natural environment that county councils are responsible for managing and protecting. The structures now being put in place such as the deer management units, the DeerConnect data system, and the collaborative framework between State agencies provide a real opportunity to bring local government into that response in a practical and constructive way. I am happy to take any questions the committee may have.

Mr. Michael Rowland

I would first like to express our thanks to the committee for the opportunity to speak today on the topic of deer management and road safety. I am here with my colleague, Ms Alison Coleman, acting CEO of the Road Safety Authority. I am the director responsible for research.

As we work to achieve the targets set out in the Government road safety strategy, namely a 50% reduction in deaths and serious injuries by 2030, and zero road deaths and serious injuries by 2050, it is important that we consider all factors, including wildlife, that may influence safety on our roads. We have analysed collision data for 2019 to 2025 to examine the prevalence of deer-related collisions on Irish roads. Over this seven-year period, 41 casualty collisions, that is, collisions where there was a serious or minor road user injury, were either recorded as having involved deer, or the road user was avoiding deer at the time of the collision. None of these were fatal collisions. These 41 collisions represent less than 1% of the casualty collisions that occurred during this period.

We have also analysed material damage collisions, that is, collisions that did not result in any road user injuries, that occurred during 2019 to 2025. Over this seven-year period, 1,382 collisions were recorded as having involved deer, or the road user was avoiding deer at the time of the collision. Just under half of these collisions occurred across Kerry, Cork, Wicklow, Tipperary and Donegal. These 1,382 collisions represent less than 1% of the material damage collisions that occurred during this period.

When reviewing these figures, it is important to note that the collision dataset that we receive from An Garda Síochána does not contain a systematic field to record deer involved in collisions, and that these figures are based on a search of the free text narrative description provided for the collision, which is downloaded from An Garda Síochána.

The international research literature indicates that the frequency of road traffic collisions with deer can be influenced by a range of factors such as temporal factors, for example, time of day, such as dusk and dawn; animal activity, for example, migration; visibility and weather conditions; proximity of the road to woodland or forest cover; and traffic volume and speed. Different factors interact to affect the level of collision risk.

Mitigation strategies tend to focus on four key areas. These include physical measures to separate deer from the roads, for example, fencing; other deterrent measures, for example, chemical or olfactory repellents; and manipulation of deer habitats and density, for example, management of roadside vegetation. They also include measures to influence driver behaviour, such as awareness campaigns, dynamic warning signs, use of in-vehicle warning systems and reducing driver speed. The evidence regarding the effectiveness of these mitigation strategies is somewhat limited, reflecting challenges in conducting research, monitoring and capturing data in relation to collisions involving deer. Overall however, a holistic approach is recommended, wherein a strategic combination of measures that target different factors are introduced, to suit the particular circumstances of the relevant location.

The RSA would welcome a strategic, multi-factorial approach to reducing and monitoring collisions involving deer on Irish roads. In relation to monitoring, this is of particular importance as the RSA will no longer have access to the free text narrative description of road traffic collisions from the end of this month. This means the RSA will not be able to search and identify collisions involving deer from 2026 onwards, and it will be difficult for the RSA to monitor or evaluate the road safety impact of any introduced initiatives in relation to deer management. However, An Garda Síochána will still have access to this information and may be able to assist in this regard.

In addition to reducing the risk of collisions involving deer, some initiatives may also benefit road safety more broadly. Reductions in driver speed in rural locations, for example, may reduce the likelihood of collisions occurring in general, and the severity of injuries sustained, should a collision occur.

We look forward to collaborating with the committee as we all work towards reducing trauma on our roads and achieving Ireland's 2030 and 2050 targets. This concludes my opening statement to the committee. We are happy to take any questions members may have.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to participate in today's discussion on deer management. I am chief underwriting officer in FBD Insurance and am joined by my colleagues Mr. Stewart Gavin, head of product, and Mr. Ciaran Roche, risk manager, both of whom have significant experience in farm insurance and farm safety.

FBD's interest in deer management is grounded in our role as Ireland's largest farm insurer and in our daily interactions with farm families, rural businesses and communities across the country. That perspective gives us direct insight into the practical issues associated with deer populations, particularly in areas such as road safety. From an insurance and risk-management perspective, poorly managed deer populations can create a range of exposures. These include deer-vehicle collisions on rural roads, damage to farm infrastructure and crops and broader pressure on farmers, landowners and local communities where deer densities become unsustainable.

FBD's claims experience reflects many of the practical risks associated with deer management. Since 2020, we have recorded 466 deer-related claims, with the vast majority relating to vehicle damage arising from deer-vehicle collisions. Claim volumes have increased over recent years, peaking at 99 claims in 2024, with 33 claims recorded in the year to date in 2026. The claims are not evenly distributed across the country. Higher volumes are concentrated in certain counties, including Kerry, Cork, Galway, Tipperary and Wicklow, which broadly align with areas where deer populations and deer-related pressures appear to be more pronounced.

FBD recognises that deer are an important part of our natural environment and that management must be lawful, humane, evidence-led and locally co-ordinated. We are supportive of the overall deer management strategy and its objective of transforming deer management in Ireland from a fragmented and reactive model into a more structured, evidence-based and sustainable approach nationwide.

FBD believes that deer management will support safer roads and farms. We welcome the full implementation of the deer management strategy and where we can support stakeholders in achieving its objectives, we will do our best to do so.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I am chairman of the deer subcommittee of the NARGC. With me today is Mr. John Butler, national vice chairman. For those who are not familiar with the NARGC, we are Ireland's largest hunting and shooting association with a membership of circa 25,000 members spread across nearly 1,000 clubs throughout the 26 counties of the Republic. All of our board members and also committee members are 100% voluntary and are dedicated to providing a safe, ethical and conscientious environment for future generations of hunters to come. We strive to respect the decisions, actions and relationships of the communities, members and stakeholders we serve.

The NARGC deer subcommittee is a dedicated group focused on addressing deer-related matters and promoting best practice in deer management and conservation. We deliver a range of high standard training courses, including deer stalking and safe handling of wild game meat, all of which are Lantra certified. Our work is carried out in a safe, ethical and conscientious manner, ensuring responsible stewardship, education and professionalism across all of our activities.

We believe there are a number of issues which continue to hinder effective and long-term management of deer. For instance, the lack of a venison market in Ireland means hunters are receiving a minimal rate of payment for carcases which are submitted to game meat-handling establishments. If the venison market in Ireland was more prevalent and accessible to hunters, we believe that game meat establishments would be able to offer a more attractive rate for healthy carcases.

We also believe that culls should be carried out on a more concentrated basis in conjunction with deer management unit, DMU, co-ordinators and hunters. We have an example in our opening statement of one of our pilot deer management projects for the committee's perusal. This would include a mobile cold room being in situ for a chosen duration which would be made available to local hunters to submit carcases for storage. Deer stalkers should be supported in acquiring small-scale cold storage units so that they can store the harvested deer. In UK, deer stalkers are grant-aided to install such units.

We are aware of farm shops trying to sell local venison, but could not do so because of regulation and law. Our members are very much against treating venison as a waste product. We ask that a select group be set up to look at this and come up with recommendations in a timely manner, including some legislative changes, to increase the sources for the sale and supply of venison.

In our opening statement there is an outline of how a deer density problem area should be treated. We have a comprehensive report which follows the pilot project run by NARGC members. We also have a synopsis of the project, which started in March 2025. A Wicklow farm was shut down due to a TB outbreak and seven generations of a cattle bloodline were removed totally. A strict deer management plan had to be put in place. We sat down with the farmer and developed an extensive deer management plan, with the relevant paperwork. We started with a number of surveys, counting deer for the first couple of weeks. We came up with the number of 52 deer and when we did the deer population calculation we got a figure of 92 deer, with a cull figure of 30 deer. We started, and over a period of time culled 30 deer. This was all witnessed by a farmer on the land, who wanted to be involved. While culling the deer, we collected data by means of co-ordinates, plucks, brolocks and head samples for TB testing. These were also logged on maps with species, sex, age and condition. Samples were tested in Blackweston. The farmer carried out this part of the project.

To date, we have results from 20 deer and are awaiting five and another five are in the freezer waiting to go. Fourteen deer tested negative and three deer tested positive for TB - one stag, one mature female and one female calf. Three deer, one male, one male calf and one mature female, tested for other microbacteria. The sex of the 20 deer was eight male and 12 female. All deer were visually checked by us. Only one had signs of TB; it was a stag and the whole animal was sent to be tested.

Moving on from the farm, we increased the size of the land area to approximately 1,500 acres to bring in more farmers' land, Coillte forestry and private forestry. We increased manpower from two to seven and started the survey process again. During day and night surveys, we came up with a count of 194 deer. We realised that 45 deer were fenced in an enclosure, so we reduced the figure to 149 wild deer. We carried out the deer population calculation on 149 deer and came up with an actual number of 271 deer population and a cull figure of 87.

Up to the end of April 2026, 35 deer were culled on the original project area while another 31 were culled on the greater project area giving a total of 66 deer. There will also be other stalking by individuals. The process of this year's cull is underway. We have also set up eight deer impact areas, which are ongoing and are being monitored by a student from UCD. He is also carrying out mapping and data logging for us on the project.

We are in the process of purchasing a thermal drone to set up deer survey accounts and get a more realistic figure regarding the population in the area. This would be an ongoing process to monitor deer in the project areas. We also taking tick samples off deer and sending them away for analysis. We worked with the NPWS on the permits. It was very helpful. We also worked with our local forester who gave us permissions and also afforded us equipment to carry out our our project. Local landowners were also very helpful.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a huge amount of data there and I thank Mr. O'Connor for the details. The earlier report has been submitted to members. As I said earlier, we did have an opportunity to discuss matters with the deer management people earlier and get their perspective on things. Very often, the perception of deer management is going out shooting so I would be interested to hear if there are other perspectives whether it is in fencing or in education. What other options might be there? It is not all one-way traffic. If the witnesses have other perspectives on it, I would be interested to hear them.

While the RSA and FBD Insurance gave us an overall figure, are the numbers are on the increase? The figures are well short of what we hear happens locally. That would be very much down to the fact that so many incidents go unreported. Many people will have a collision, the deer will do the damage and will go and it will be left unreported. The council may well be picking up the bodies on some parts of the the road. I know that in my own area, the council has people going out and the contractor collecting fallen deer along the road and I am sure it is similar to other councils. Can the witnesses give indication of the trends?

One thing many road users and farmers will know is that there are predictable times of year. There is a seasonal aspect where when the rut is on and the focus of the deer is elsewhere. If they are crossing the road, they do not give a toss about someone's car. They will walk over it to get to where they are going. The RSA runs a winter road safety campaign. Has it considered running a road safety campaign around the time of the deer rut to focus drivers' attention on it. Many road users will see the the lovely sign along the road but will not be familiar with it and will not twig that there is a particular significance to it. It is only if one is familiar with deer that one will realise that when there is one deer, very likely there is a second, especially during the rut or in the summer when the young might be following the doe. Has or could the RSA run a road safety campaign to make the road safer for road users? Could witnesses from the other groups tell me if trends are available as well?

Mr. Michael Rowland

There were 1,382 collisions where there was material damage and a vehicle was damaged as the result of hitting or avoiding a deer. We did analysis from 2019 to 2025. We can see an increase, which is possibly consistent with an increase in the population. In 2019, there were 122 incidents involving deer for material damage. That has increased year on year to 262 collisions in 2025 so there has been an increase and we have seen that trend.

With regard to seasonality, when we looked at it in terms of material damage collisions, they make up the greatest number of collisions that have occurred. We can see that September right the way through to December is when we have the majority of those collisions occurring. In September, the figure was 11%; in October, the figure was 21%; in November, the figure was 12%; and in December, the figure was 11%. We have seen an increase of collisions in those particular months from 155 in September to 293 in October to 169 in November and 149 in December.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the RSA running its campaigns on the basis of that knowledge?

Mr. Michael Rowland

We are. In the past, we have run campaigns around rutting season in conjunction with rutting season and in particular social media campaigns. We have also worked with local road safety authorities, particularly local road safety officers in the local authorities, and we will action that again come September.

An Cathaoirleach

In his statement. Mr. Rowland that the RSA was losing access to some data. What is the reason for that?

Mr. Michael Rowland

That is following a review of the data sets that we get from An Garda Síochána. An Garda Síochána goes to the scene of a collision and records the data and that is recorded in the Garda Information Services Centre, which is based in Castlebar. We get a download of that each day and part of that download was the Garda narrative in terms of the collision. That has been deemed personal information and as a result, we no longer have access to it. An Garda Síochána has a systematic profile in terms of collisions involving animals but it does not specify deer. With regard to what I referenced in my opening statement, we actually had to manually go through the narrative to see whether or not deer were involved.

Senator Paul Daly

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to go first. I have another meeting to go to at 4.30 p.m. so if I get up and walk out, it is not that I am offended. I will seek the transcript of the witnesses' responses afterwards but I should be here for the responses. To have Mr. Kehoe sitting across from me brings me back to my council days. He was director of services in Westmeath County Council when I was councillor there and it is good to have him in here again. For the record, Mr. Gavin is a good neighbour of mine at home so I almost feel like I am among my own here today so I will go easy on them for that reason.

I will be brief because I want to give the witnesses the time to respond. My questions are mainly insurance-related. Both FBD Insurance and the RSA say the numbers of claims and the numbers of accidents are increasing. That means the number of deer is increasing but since the reduction of speed limits on by-roads, have they noticed any change? One would imagine that this should have had an influence but the RSA and FBD Insurance said the numbers are still increasing. I am a bit alarmed. It was the same last week. We are still counting deer and are still trying to get a handle on how many we have out there. When it comes to solving a problem, it is never reassuring when we do not actually know the extent of the problem. This highlights how everybody is affected by this. We usually only hear about deer in this committee when we talk about TB but there are a lot of other issues associated with the deer population, which the witnesses are highlighting.

I have a few insurance-related queries. I am obliged as a farmer to have a stock-proof fence on my land and if my cattle are on the road, I am responsible. The fencing I have would be stock-proof but it would not stop deer. If a deer comes from my land on to a road, is there any way I can be responsible? If I bring in the lads to control the deer if deer is on my land and they have an accident of whatever type while they are on my land, are they covered even if they are the licensed culling people and everything is above board? Who was responsible there if an inadvertent accident while they are in clearing the deer?

Do the witnesses think there should be an obligation on local authorities to have public lands or parks fenced with a stock-proof or deer-proof fence? Going back to insurance again, is there any fear that I might be opening a can of worms and next year when I get my insurance it will say the stock-proof fencing should be deer-proof? I do not want to open that can of worms either but where are we on it with insurance? I asked already but has there been no reduction since the speed limits were reduced? Signage was mentioned and I am not being flippant or smart but the problem we have is that the deer cannot read the signs.

I will give the witnesses a run at those questions because I must have used nearly half the time.

Mr. Michael Rowland

On the reduction in speed limits, the data I have at the moment does not suggest there has been a reduction in collisions occurring with deer as a result of the reduction. That is based on the data I have with me. As I said earlier, there has been an increase year on year, which seems to be linked to an increase in the deer population.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

On trends, we noticed probably a significant increase in the trend of incidents between 2020 and 2023. Our figures have stabilised from 2023 to date, so that may be as a result of the speed limits on the roads but that, in fairness, is speculation.

On farmers' responsibility if the land is not fenced with deer-proof fencing, it is a legal question more than an insurance question but if a farmer is found liable that is what public liability insurance is for. It is not a requirement a normal livestock farmer have deer-proof fencing.

As for the responsibility for a farmer to cover people on their land, I will pass over to Mr. Gavin.

Mr. Stewart Gavin

If there are deer-culling contractors on your land and you have a farm policy with FBD, you will hear about public liability. That is a section you can buy within the policy, so it is up to the farmer to tailor the policy to their own needs. If a farmer has that cover, their legal liability is protected in the event of a deer-culling contractor sustaining an injury on that farmland. That is covered as standard. Customers do not need to contact us. We have not seen a frequency of incidents associated with it either, but there is cover there as standard within the policy, so farmers have a bit of peace of mind from that perspective.

Senator Paul Daly

Public liability or employer's liability?

Mr. Stewart Gavin

Public liability, yes.

Senator Paul Daly

What about the fencing of public lands? Does Mr. Kehoe see a responsibility on local authorities?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

Not so much on local authorities. There are far larger landowners than local authorities that would have deer on their lands, such as Coillte and so on, and it may be a matter they might need to consider, rather than us. We do not really have lands that enclose large areas of wilderness, so to speak. Kerry County Council is working with some of those bodies at the moment on a new way of controlling deer, which is an electronic fence. They are at the early stage of that so we hope that is something that will bear fruit. We can report back on that in due course when the initial phases have been passed and see if it is a success or not. It would not really be a matter for us.

Senator Paul Daly

Thanks, Chair.

Deputy William Aird

I welcome everybody. I wish everybody well who is associated with World Bee Day tomorrow. They have done a whole lot of work in my county and I want to acknowledge that.

I am going to ask two questions of each of the people who are here. The first is to the RSA. If the RSA's data on deer collisions is incomplete, how can the Government make informed decisions on deer management and road safety? Why is there no proper system to record deer-related crashes, especially when the RSA says it will lose access to key collision data from this month?

The NARGC argues that Ireland lacks a proper venison market and that regulations are preventing local farm shops from selling venison. What specific legislative changes are needed to support a safe, viable and local venison market, which is something I support? Its submission also proposes more concentrated culling and expanding use of thermal drones for population tracking, and I want to ask about that. Will the NARGC also say a few words on TB as well? Its data is very interesting.

To FBD, have deer-related claims risen in recent years? In its view, is the current deer management system failing to keep pace with the growing deer population in some rural areas? The company supports a more structured and evidence-based deer management strategy. What specific actions should the Government prioritise to reduce deer-related accidents and farm damage?

Mr. Kehoe is from Westmeath County Council, although he is here due to his role in the CCMA. He said warning signs are only a mitigation measure and not a solution. Does local government believe current deer population controls are insufficient to properly protect road users and rural communities? Mr. Kehoe might talk to us for a couple of minutes because in my area we have a huge problem along the road from Abbeyleix to Durrow and on the Portarlington road out of Portlaoise to Emo. Does he have any discussions with anybody on deer fencing on certain stretches of the road where there is evidence of a lot of crashes on that road due to deer management? He called for stronger data-sharing between local authorities, the RSA, An Garda Síochána and deer management units. What is currently preventing that co-operation from happening effectively?

I have a good few more questions but I will allow the witnesses to answer them first. They can be taken in the order I called them out.

Mr. Michael Rowland

I thank the Deputy. On the RSA data being incomplete or underestimated, the data we get is downloaded from An Garda Síochána. It captures that data. As I explained earlier, the data categorises it as an animal involved in a collision, so for us to get the data for the committee today we had to manually go through the system to identify deer in the narrative or in the free text field gardaí have as part of their investigation or reporting. It may be underestimated but it is still quite significant and in terms of road safety measures it gives a good indication there has been an increase or a trend. We have seen the counties where these collisions are most likely to occur. When we have looked at the international literature on what mitigation works, we have seen more recently the SMARTDEER project from UCD. It talks about mitigation approaches, including targeted warning signage of collision hot spots. It talks about roadside vegetation management to improve visibility, fencing and wildlife crossings at known crossing points, lower vehicle speeds in high-risk areas and improved collision reporting systems. While the data may not be fully complete it gives a good indication and the international literature we see recommend those particular interventions.

Deputy William Aird

Okay. There are two questions for Mr. O'Connor.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

My colleague, Mr. Butler, is going to take the question on the venison market.

On TB and concentrated culls, we believe a concentrated cull would rapidly identify the presence of TB in deer in an area and allow us to concentrate on eradicating TB-affected deer from the area, which I believe would prevent the spread of it to other farms.

Deputy William Aird

It would certainly help, anyway. What about the venison market?

Mr. John Butler

I thank the Deputy. Venison is probably one of the most underutilised sources of protein marketed in the country. It was raised at the deer management strategy group and identified for potential expansion and promotion. We all want to see everything happening today even though everything is not going to happen today.

We would like to see moves afoot by organisations such as Bord Bia to put a strategy in place for the promotion of this organic product that we have at our doorsteps, which is so plentiful. If you look at other European countries-----

Deputy William Aird

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Butler. I am going to run out of time. Could Mr. Kelleher answer the questions I put to him?

Mr. John Butler

No problem at all.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

What we want to see is the avoidance of incidents that we know could be addressed by better planning. There is a deer management strategy. We would like to see it implemented. There is a need for greater co-operation between the various bodies, which is evident in the discussions last week and tonight. The available data and improved data insights probably form part of that. That is an area where we can support improvement.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

On road safety, our road safety officers and district engineers engage with local landowners where there is a local issue. In response, maybe fencing, warning signage and so on could be improved, but it is a matter for the landowner rather than the local authority, and as the Deputy will understand and as has been outlined, deer are very hard to contain. The best we can do from a road safety perspective where we are unable to fence is to reduce the speed of the traffic-----

Deputy William Aird

When Mr. Kehoe says the local landowner, does he realise that deer go through farms with no consequences at all to the landowner? They are only passing through, going to mate, meet their girlfriends, or whatever the case may be. There is no point in talking to the farmer at the side of the road if the deer are coming down from the mountain and passing through. I just want to clarify that from a farming point of view.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

It is a very difficult situation. It varies across the country, between Kerry, the midlands, the north west and so on. Every scenario is difficult when it comes to controlling deer.

Deputy William Aird

Does Mr. Kehoe agree with fencing on the side of the road?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

I do not know how effective it might be in particular situations. Maybe there is a role for fencing but I am just not sure.

Deputy William Aird

Going down the main road from Dublin to home, on the new bypass of Portlaoise, a small stretch is deer-fenced because of the danger. They went through a wood near it. In all my time, and other people have probably seen it, I have never met a deer. Coming home from here, I am on that road at night more often than I ever was, and I never see a deer on that stretch because there is high, powerful fencing.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy raised a very relevant point about TB. Last week, we were talking to the officials about the strategy and they were telling us that very few deer that were shot were sent off for sample. Is there an issue with sending samples or do members send many? When they shoot, do they send one in 100, one in 1,000, or is there some difficulty with it? We are hearing that the number of samples for TB testing are really low.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

There is no real legislation to enforce or promote TB testing of carcases. It would be more a best practice guideline.

An Cathaoirleach

Why does it not happen? Is it difficult to take a sample and send it off? The testing is available.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

It is not difficult. A long-term stigma is attached to it and maybe a fear that if a deer is detected on a farm with TB, the farmer could be shut down or it might have a negative outcome for the farmer and maybe the hunter too. We need more promotion of carcase testing. We are extremely experienced deer hunters. We carried out our own inspections on the deer that we shot, in a pilot project and we did not detect some of the TB carriers. Some TB-affected animals are definitely getting through the net.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Regarding accident black spots, I know they referred to Wicklow, Kerry, Tipperary, and so on. Are some of these accidents happening in the same location? Has any work been done with TII on fencing? Deputy Aird referred last week to the road to Abbeyleix. One side of it was fenced and the other was not. Surely it is in everybody's interest that this be done. What work is being done in this regard? A database is needed about collisions. There is no point in everybody having information and nobody sharing information, because it is in everybody's interest. Can everybody get together and come up with a database where they can share information, whether it is through the gardaí or the public on the street? That is for sighting, monitoring and the hunters being able to feed into it. There is some kind of database for the hunters to feed information in. In some situations, some of that is not going in. I do not know what percentage of it is going in. Nearly 80,000 deer are killed in a year. Is that database not something where everybody can come together and get that done? Is there support that we can give the witnesses for that?

Ms Alison Coleman

I will take that one because it is following on from what Deputy Aird said about data sharing. There is an opportunity that would require the support of this committee. I watched the meeting last week and Deputy Fitzmaurice picked up on it when he mentioned that the data had been received at TII but it had not thought of discussing it with insurance companies like FBD or us. We have data, the gardaí have data, the Motor Insurers' Bureau of Ireland, MIBI, has data, and insurance companies have data. That definitely could inform outcomes for the deer management strategy. It is not too late, although they are in implementation stage and we would welcome involvement in that to better inform road safety outcomes, education and awareness going forward. There is definitely opportunity there.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

That is common sense.

Ms Alison Coleman

It would need a little impetus and steer from a committee such as this, as a recommendation. That is something the Deputy could help us with. Mr. Rowland might address how we have recently updated our website in a way that might inform Deputies of collisions in their areas.

Mr. Michael Rowland

In recent weeks, we published a map locator for each county on the RSA website, so people can see what collisions have occurred and where. That will be updated regularly. People will be able to see the roads, who was involved, and pertinent information about the collision, whether it was a serious injury or fatality. That is in each local authority.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Mr. O'Connor's group is voluntary. It did a pilot programme. Was that just the NARGC and volunteers? Did it get funding for it?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

No, that was totally on a volunteer basis.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

We had the Irish deer management strategy group in last week. It is a lot of money, at €3.6 million for the four years. What I am getting at is whether we need to spend all that money. What does Mr. O'Connor think about it? Could we have worked without it? Could we just have worked with Mr. O'Connor's group? Is it better that we have the strategy group for the data it will give us? On TB, I asked last week whether with the bridge system there is a way that the deer hunter could be armed with what he needs to sample for TB.

All the information we are collecting will help us and farmers in the long run. Some sampling has been done. Is that voluntary as well?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

It is voluntary and it is carried out in conjunction with the regional veterinary office.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Okay. How is the NARGC going to work with the deer management strategy group?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

To be honest, we do not really work with it. Darren Flynn, who is not present, and I met FRS about a year and a half ago and offered our services. We were interested in getting on board because, as I said in the opening statement, we have a membership of 25,000 hunters. We have a massive database. Those people are spread across 1,000 clubs throughout the country. You are never more than a few miles away from an NARGC member. We offered the use of our database to get hunters involved. We were keen to keep local hunters involved in the deer management programme. We did not want to see contractors coming in and taking hunting land away from local clubs.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Does Mr. O’Connor think that is what is going to happen?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I do not know. I would be fearful that it could happen.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I know local hunters at home. They are like farmers knowing their own land. They know the land best. They know where the ditches are. They are out at night. They know where the streams are.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Whatever it is, they know. They know everything because they have been there for years. They know where the deer are. It would, obviously, make more sense for that database to be able to say there are a lot more sightings in a particular location and not enough hunters in that area. The NARGC could get involved and bring in a few lads to go and give a hand to cull the deer. I think there just has to be so much more joined-up thinking.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I do not want to see all this money spent without using the knowledge already there. This has to be considered. We cannot just have an organisation running off on a tangent and doing its own thing when there is already knowledge there that just needs to be banked.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes. One of our recommendations some 18 months ago to FRS was to land a temporary cold room in an area because we were focusing on a concentrated cull area. The cold room facilitates the hunter to submit carcases that he or she has culled from the area.

This is the way it is at the moment. I live in Wexford, but there are hunters all over Ireland. You could go out this evening, in the morning or whenever, and shoot three deer. You could bring those carcases to your local game meat establishment, which could be 80 miles or 100 miles away. You would spend twice the amount on diesel than what you would get for the three carcases. This is an issue because it is not like you can stand these carcases in the corner of the shed for three weeks until you have enough to go to the game dealer. You are caught. You have to go and submit the carcases while they are fresh because they are going into the food chain.

In relation to the question from the Deputy on whether we could have done this rather than FRS, it would be very easy for me to say we could have done this no problem and for free, because it is easy to knock when the responsibility does not fall upon you. We would be keen, though, to play a part in this endeavour and afford our members the opportunity to take part in the deer management programme. I thank the committee.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I thank Mr. O’Connor.

Senator Paraic Brady

I thank our witnesses for all their statements. I have a few questions for the Road Safety Authority. In America, deer were a huge problem when I was there. Cars and other vehicles were fitted with a whistle. You could not hear the whistles from inside the car but you could hear them from outside the car, and they were a deterrent for any animals, especially deer, crossing public roadways. Have we looked at any of that scientific-based evidence coming from Canada or America?

Mr. Michael Rowland

I have not seen it, but we can have a look. I am not aware of it. We looked at international evidence in terms of what mitigation measures have worked or been seen to have worked in other jurisdictions. I have not heard of that particular example but we will certainly have a look at it and come back.

Senator Paraic Brady

Turning to the NARGC, I wholeheartedly agree with it that deer meat is very valuable and should be used for consumption when it is slaughtered rather than being dumped. As a meat, it is a commodity. Anyone who has ever eaten venison, and I eat it, will know it is different from beef. It is quite tender and nice.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I eat it. It is grand.

Senator Paraic Brady

Cold storage was mentioned. Kerry, Cork, Wicklow, Donegal and Kildare were named. Galway and Mayo are huge areas. We have only ever seen three deer in the county of Longford and I have been there for 23 years. I only saw them this year. I would probably not have seen them this year but for Storm Éowyn having knocked down a huge number of forests. We have seen deer move out of County Leitrim, which is highly populated with them, and into County Longford.

Deer crossing roads was mentioned. I would like to get everybody’s comments on this aspect. Everybody knows that deer will cross a road at certain points. Everyone who hunts will know the obvious part is that when deer are crossing at one point, you can see the hedges are broken down from where they have crossed. Is there any joined-up thinking on fencing areas to allow safe passage for deer to cross from one side of the road to the other? There has to be some thinking among those here along the lines that we know accidents happen on a road, we know the deer are crossing at certain points on the road and might it be possible to fence a kilometre one way and then another kilometre the other way and force the deer to cross in a section that is controlled, whether by lighting or whatever else. Is there any of that joined-up thinking in the RSA?

Mr. Michael Rowland

I am from County Mayo. The RSA is based in the county.

Ms Alison Coleman

I am from County Galway, so we have a good mix.

Mr. Michael Rowland

I am not an expert in deer management as such. I just presented the data to the committee. When we looked at the international evidence regarding the point the Senator made about known crossing points, one of the recommendations for mitigation measures from the SmartDeer project, which was done by UCD, was to have fencing and wildlife crossings at known crossing points, so there seems to be substance in what the Senator is saying. As I said, I am not a deer expert as such.

Senator Paraic Brady

Does the RSA intend to move the recommendation on, based on the evidence it has?

Mr. Michael Rowland

Well, I am responsible for research. We do not have responsibility in terms of engineering or mitigation measures in respect of fencing or that. That is-----

Senator Paraic Brady

Where does the research go?

Mr. Michael Rowland

We share our research and present it as we have done here today. We will present it and share it with the local authorities. We work in conjunction with them. We have worked very closely with previous road safety officers in County Mayo on deer management and campaigns. We have a network of road safety officers throughout the country who work closely with the local authority road safety officers and we regularly share data with them. We also share campaigns. That is where our data goes.

Senator Paraic Brady

I would like to see that recommendation moving forward.

Mr. Michael Rowland

Yes.

Senator Paraic Brady

Going back to the insurance end of things, regarding deer hit on the road, how does this process work? Is the driver liable?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

Usually what happens is that the damage to the car is the subject of the claim. Most of the incidents that we see thankfully involve just a single driver and car having collided with a deer. The average cost is around €8,000 to €9,000. Within that range, most claims are small, but there are a few fairly large ones in terms of cost. A small number of incidents in that population of 466 also involve injuries. These typically arise where there might be other passengers in the car.

Senator Paraic Brady

The driver is at fault, so is it their insurance that pays?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

Yes. They claim off their own insurance for the damage to the car.

Senator Paraic Brady

This means they lose their no-claims bonus.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

Yes. They may lose their no-claims bonus in such instances.

Senator Paraic Brady

I will go back to the NARGC for my next question. Regarding deer management and culling, its members have great knowledge of the deer population, which we have seen grow. Is there a mechanism whereby we could see a cold room? We are talking about TB. Anybody in deer management or out shooting deer on a regular basis knows when a deer is up and when they see lymph nodes that are infected, they know the animal has TB. It is the same as with cattle. It is very simple. They show the exact same symptoms as cattle. When the deer is shot, nine times out of ten the person who shoots the deer, whether it is deer management or hunters, know the animal is carrying TB before it is ever sent in for a test if it is showing symptoms. Is this correct?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes.

Senator Paraic Brady

Is there no joined-up thinking between the Departments, whereby when there is a fear about animals that people would take samples? Where are we going? What are the thoughts of the NARGC on this? Does the organisation think there should be funding in place through the NARGC and the Department to gather samples and get more information regarding deer carrying TB? That is the question to answer.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I will be honest; I cannot see the Senator making ground in regard to testing animals without funding.

Senator Paraic Brady

We have €3.6 million.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

There is €3.6 million but there is only €3.6 million allocated to the FRS deer management programme. It is not allocated to normal boots on the ground hunters who are not taking part in an FRS project.

Senator Paraic Brady

The meat goes into the food chain so somebody is going to win on this.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I do not partake. I do not shoot for FRS but I hunt, and I can still put deer into the food chain even though I am not part of FRS.

Senator Paraic Brady

I understand that.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

If we are trying to get somebody to leave their hunt, there has to be an incentive with regard to every impact on a hunter. If we want something out of the hunter, we will have to give the hunter something back. I cannot see the Senator making ground on testing without an incentive.

Senator Paraic Brady

There is a place in County Meath that buys deer at so much kilo. Is this correct?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

That is correct. It is a game meat establishment.

Senator Paraic Brady

All of the deer are tested. Is that correct?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Supposedly, yes.

Senator Paraic Brady

What is wrong with the National Parks and Wildlife Service providing the same service?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I agree.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

All hunters should be equipped with what they need.

Senator Paraic Brady

It is mind boggling.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

We will spend €3.6 million and we will not have any more information.

Senator Paraic Brady

We will not have any more information than what we had.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

We have to use opportunities like this.

Deputy Michael Cahill

I welcome our guests this afternoon. Accidents involving deer are a regular occurrence in County Kerry. Every day, evening and night there are accidents and, sadly, I am aware of tragedies that have happened in the past. Deer are in every corner of our county now and that was not always the case. There was a major fire not too long ago in Killarney National Park, which scattered the deer in every direction. By nature, they are inclined to roam anyway. They were roaming but we find them in the most unknown places today.

If someone's cow, sheep or bullock jumps out on the road, the landowner or farmer is held responsible. This law does not apply to deer and it is the driver of the vehicle who is responsible. This is wrong. Who should be responsible? What can be done to make our roads safer in this context? It is a regular issue and my former colleagues in Kerry County Council have raised it at every meeting for years. While all this is happening, accidents continue to occur.

Most cases go unreported because the public know it is pointless reporting to the Garda. I have looked at the figures on casualty collisions and since 2019 there was a total of 24 with regard to avoiding deer and 17 involving deer. We have these figures at least every month in Kerry. It is all very well until there is a loss of life or somebody is injured to the extent their life is never again the same. There should be something in an insurance context for these people.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae is here and he had an accident himself, and I am aware of other public representatives in Kerry having accidents with deer. A lot of members of Kerry County Council, past and present, who deal with road engineers, have had accidents. This is no big wonder in my county. It is an occurrence every day, evening and night. I am not exaggerating. Something needs to be done in the context of signage, although that is a waste of time. The public can be made more alert but, that being said, the deer can jump out in front of them.

I also want to mention Lyme disease, which I have raised many times as a Member of Dáil Éireann and as a member of Kerry County Council. Deer are a dominant carrier of Lyme disease and ticks. Members of the public go to Germany and elsewhere to be diagnosed and treated. It is a horrible illness. I have called in the past for a dedicated Lyme disease unit in University Hospital Kerry. Kerry is the appropriate place given its proximity to Killarney National Park and the issues I have outlined. This would be a place where our people can be diagnosed and treated. It is very difficult for GPs to diagnose, and they will say this themselves. It is a huge problem. I know people in every town, village and parish in Kerry who are suffering with Lyme disease. It is a very debilitating illness. I ask that we make this call to the Minister for Health and the Department of Health for a dedicated unit. There should certainly be one in southern Ireland. It is an issue we have spoken about previously.

An Cathaoirleach

We will discuss it at a private meeting of the committee.

Mr. Michael Rowland

With regard to the numbers the Deputy quoted, in the data we gave Kerry has the highest number recorded by An Garda Síochána. The smaller numbers he referred to are where people have been seriously injured or suffered an injury. We see the larger numbers in terms of material damage, where no one has suffered an injury but there has been damage done to the car as a result of a collision. Kerry has 11% of these collisions based on the data we have downloaded from An Garda Síochána.

Deputy Michael Cahill

My big point is that the vast majority go unreported and I know this for a fact. This is because people know there is no point.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

The data from Kerry stands out as having the highest number with regard to deer. I agree there is a human cost to these incidents and there is probably a lot of underreporting. Insurance only deals with a small part of the problem. We look after the financial consequences of the injury or the damage to the car when these incidents happen.

Unfortunately, there are incidents where there is loss of no-claims discounts. There is no perfect solution to that. We promote no-claims bonus protection as a cover to mitigate a big increase in premium. We communicate at the point of claim and again at renewal the impact at a premium level of making a claim for an incident in order that customers can be informed as to whether or not it is financially worthwhile to make that claim.

Mr. John Butler

This does not directly follow on from the accident end of it, but I have just a couple of quick observations with respect to a couple of the questions raised by the Deputies and Senators.

In relation to the insurance aspect of it, all members of the NARGC, while carrying out their management on behalf of their landowners, are covered 100% and the landowner is covered 100% by our compensation fund. There would be absolutely no fear there of any landowner being put at risk by having an NARGC member culling deer on their behalf.

Going back to Deputy Newsome Drennan's point about the joined-up thinking and so on, unfortunately, looking back, this is not the first time we have discussed deer management in these Houses. A number of years ago there was a very comprehensive study done on deer management and a report given in, and very little action ever took place on it. That was then followed up with this new, most recent deer management forum. There was great enthusiasm at the start of the deer management forum and a lot of extremely good work was done. There were certain aspects of it targeted that were prioritised, like setting up FRS with the DMUs and so on and getting that up and running. That was prioritised. A lot of the rest of it, however, seems to be left behind. The joined-up thinking has to be driven by leadership and the leadership comes from the Members in these Houses. Looking, for example, at who is responsible for the management of deer in this country, it has to be our National Parks and Wildlife Service. They are the people who are primarily the Government agency that looks after the management of all our nature and all our wildlife. Does the National Parks and Wildlife Service have a deer management plan in our national parks? That is a very simple question. I know there is nobody here who can answer it, but maybe someone can get an answer to that for the committee at some stage.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I think Kerry is pretty good. It is better than some.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

The Phoenix Park is the only one I know of.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

They are probably not joined up.

Mr. John Butler

There are others and-----

An Cathaoirleach

I need to move the discussion on to give Senator Lynch a chance.

Mr. John Butler

Senator Brady talked about the TB issue. TB is a notifiable disease. All our members who are trained and anybody, even non-members, who undertakes our game meat handling training is certified and qualified to detect TB in a culled animal as part and parcel of their responsibility to do so. I know my colleagues said that in some cases it might not be detectable, but that is a very small, minimal percentage of the cases. In the vast majority of cases it will be obvious to the trained eye that the animal has TB. That person is then responsible for ensuring that animal is brought and reported to the proper authorities. There is a paper trail, training, certification and so on to ensure that the like of that happens.

An Cathaoirleach

I need to move on to Senator Lynch.

Senator Eileen Lynch

I thank all the witnesses for being here with us. First, in relation to insurance and the no-claims bonus, Senator Brady said that in some cases you lose your no-claims bonus and in others you do not. What is the actual lie of the land behind that? It makes no sense to me that sometimes you do and sometimes you do not. If you do lose it, what is the reasoning behind that? If I hit a cow on the road, I can take an action against the farmer. I cannot take an action against the State, to the best of my knowledge, for a deer because while they are part of the State, they are also wild animals. If I hit a wall tonight, that is my fault and I therefore lose my no-claims bonus. However, how is it justifiable that if a deer jumps out on the road in front of me, about which I can do nothing, only react, I lose my no-claims bonus? What are the actual rules, guidelines and legislative points behind that?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

It is not essentially laid out in law. It is laid out within the insurance policy.

Senator Eileen Lynch

That would vary from insurer to insurer.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

It would vary from policy to policy. Some customers buy a no-claims bonus protection that would basically protect the bonus in the event of an incident arising which would otherwise affect the no-claims discount.

Senator Eileen Lynch

That is not answering the question either, though, because a no-claims bonus applies to anything. If I have no-claims bonus protection, in a lot of cases if I make a claim it will be covered and I will retain my bonus. I am aware of that. I am aware that exists. However, if I do not have a no-claims bonus, how can I lose my no-claims bonus because a deer jumps out in front of me, which is not my fault?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

The distinction here is that the bonus is not a malus bonus but applies regardless of whether there is blame or no blame. Once a claim occurs and is paid, the no-claims bonus is triggered. Certain claims can be exempt. Typically, under FBD policies, all fire and theft claims are exempt. After that, however, you are relying on the policy structure applying as to whether or not it impacts the no-claims discount. Some 66% of our policies have no-claims bonus protection.

Senator Eileen Lynch

Fair enough.

To Mr. Kehoe, I do not know if my colleagues from Kerry have mentioned it already, but the detection-and-alert scheme, which was rolled out by Kerry County Council in conjunction with UCC, was a pilot scheme. Two pilot schemes were introduced in Killarney. Have we any results as to how effective they were? Similar to the Cathaoirleach, I am based around Macroom, where we have the N22 bypass and, on the bypass and on the N22 generally, we have seen an awful lot of accidents involving deer. We have seen the erection of greater deer fencing, which does not particularly seem to work. I am just wondering if these schemes that were rolled out in Killarney are effective and if there are any plans for them to be rolled out across other counties and local authorities.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

We have not got any definitive outcome from that pilot scheme yet. I have spoken to Kerry County Council in the past two days and while the scheme is progressing, the council was not able to tell me whether or not it is effective or give any indication as to its effectiveness. We need to await the completion of that before I can say any more about it.

Senator Eileen Lynch

But there will be a report of some form done-----

Mr. Barry Kehoe

There will be a report, and if it is-----

Senator Eileen Lynch

-----once the initial period is completed.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

Absolutely, and we will be looking at it with a view to implementing it elsewhere if it is successful. As well as that, there will probably be conditions under which it might work. It may not work everywhere, but under certain conditions it may be effective. We will be looking at that level of detail regarding the pilot.

Senator Eileen Lynch

In terms of the NARGC's presentation and some of the recommendations Mr. O'Connor mentioned, his second point was that "culls should be carried out on a more concentrated basis in conjunction with deer management unit ... co-ordinators". What kind of relationship would the NARGC say it and its membership have with the deer management unit under the farm relief services? It has been mentioned that we had a briefing from them last week and they are very open to working with gun and hunt clubs. That is the feedback I get from local clubs at home, but I cannot help but think that point is kind of saying we need further co-ordination and what exists there is not good enough.

Second, local shops that were not able to sell local venison due to rules and regulations were mentioned.

Will the witnesses speak a bit more about that? What are the regulatory changes? There are issues in relation to farm shop selling. The NARGC has 25,000 members. Does it have figures for the number of deer that are culled annually by its members? In relation to the open seasons order, which was extended in 2024, does the NARGC believe it should be further extended?

Mr. John Butler

Regarding the open seasons order, we have to be very careful in what we say. The Senator raised several other points. On the relationship with deer management units, we welcomed from the very start the deer management strategy forum and the work it was doing. We engaged with it from the onset and we participated in its various committees. As Mr. O'Connor said, we offered assistance as it was rolled out, particularly in local areas, because this is where a lot of the problems arise. In an area where there are local deerstalkers, whether they are our members or not, they work with the farmers and control the numbers. All of those people have to be brought on this journey in the management of deer. Sometimes, that chain of thought can get lost in the process, and some people might be moving along at a quicker pace than others. Collaboration and engagement are vital at a local level. That is where we need to focus and ensure-----

Senator Eileen Lynch

Does Mr. Butler believe that is not happening?

Mr. John Butler

It is not happening everywhere, although it is happening extremely well in some places. There are 15 deer management units around the country. Some of them are very actively involved and others not so much. That is for various reasons, but I am not going to go into those reasons here today. Suffice to say, collaboration and engagement with local deerstalkers are vital, irrespective of whether they are in a deer society, in our association or doing it privately. Everybody needs to be brought on board. That is the job of work that Farm Relief Services has to do. It has to bring everybody on board at a local level, identify where the problem is, create a solution to that problem and then analyse the results. It is a three-legged stool: identify where the problem is, create a solution for it and analyse the results.

That looks simple on paper and it should be simple in practice as well. However, in Ireland, we have a tendency to complicate things, especially where there is money involved. We need good, strong oversight and follow-through. As I said, what we tend to do in Ireland is jump at a problem, throw a heap of solutions at it, throw money at it and then walk away.

Deputy Joe Cooney

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. Road safety is a big issue. If deer come out of a landowner’s or farmer’s land, who is responsible if there is an accident on the road?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

At the moment, where incidents occur and if claims arise, they are paid out of the policyholder’s own policy. There is no right of recovery against third parties in that type of incident. Deer are part of wildlife.

Deputy Joe Cooney

Are we saying that the landowner is responsible?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

No. In relation to the damage to the person's own vehicle, that is covered under their own policy as an accidental damage claim where that occurs.

Deputy Joe Cooney

The local authorities were mentioned. I presume the local authority has no say, high up or low down, as regards deer coming onto roads.

Mr. Sean Kelleher

My understanding is that the legislation would have to change to pin the responsibility on the local authority. To be fair, I want to be clear I am not commenting from a legal perspective. I can only speak on insurance matters.

Deputy Joe Cooney

Who is responsible for putting up road signage to make people aware that there are deer in the area?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

We are responsible for all road signage. We put up road signage in the public domain on an ongoing basis, where it is required.

Deputy Joe Cooney

Does the CCMA put up road signage to alert drivers and road users that there are deer in the area? Is it responsible for that on local and minor roads?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

We are responsible for the signage. Where we are aware of a particular hazard regarding crossing deer or deer being present on a road, we would erect warning signage to that effect.

Deputy Joe Cooney

Is that on all roads?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

I cannot say it is on all roads but where we become aware of it, and the district engineer and the council make a judgment call that signage is warranted, the signage will then be erected.

Deputy Joe Cooney

That is very important. Regarding the deer management co-ordinators, does the CCMA work with them on where signage needs to go up in localities?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

There is probably some contact between them in particular areas. I think there are 15 different areas in the country. I expect there would be contact between some of those and the local authority in areas where there is a particular issue. It may not be everywhere.

Deputy Joe Cooney

What we are saying is that if signage is needed in certain areas where there are black spots, the CCMA would be the responsible body to contact and it would see to getting it put up by the local authority. Is that correct or is it the CCMA that puts it up?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

We would put it up ourselves as a road safety initiative, where we are of the view that it is beneficial.

Deputy Joe Cooney

That is very welcome. With regard to insurance for people who are ordered to shoot deer when they go onto a landowner’s property, I do not think we got a clear answer. Who exactly is responsible for the insurance if one of those people is injured on a landowner’s land?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

I am sorry, I am not sure of the question. There are two distinct elements. We are happy to provide insurance to people engaged in hunting deer. If there is an incident on the land at a point in time, it is the circumstances of the incident that will pinpoint who is responsible for that incident. What we can say, from the insurance companies’ perspective, is that if we are insuring a farmer and the farmer is held responsible for an incident that occurs on his land, the policy will support and protect that farmer. The liability will only be determined at the point of the incident but if the farmer is held responsible, the insurance is there under the farm policy.

Deputy Joe Cooney

That is if the farmer is held responsible. However, if the farmer has nothing to do with this person going onto his land and an accident happens, how can the farmer be held responsible at that stage?

Mr. Sean Kelleher

That is a legal matter as opposed to an insurance matter. It will not even come to us if the farmer is not held responsible.

Deputy Joe Cooney

We do not want to see landowners having concerns about people going onto their land to shoot or cull deer, which it is important to carry out.

Another concern that is still out there is TB. What is the update on the testing of deer for TB? There is that discussion. People feel that deer are responsible in certain locations for the spread of TB. What is the view of the witnesses?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I will take that question. The professional opinion remains very divided on what animals are carriers of TB and how it is initiated. Whether it is badgers or deer, it is definitely a shared responsibility. In relation to deer testing, which we covered earlier, NARGC members and other hunters who participate in the NARGC game meat handling certification are taught and qualified in how to inspect the carcass of a deer for signs of TB.

When a detection takes place it is then a legal requirement that the deer be reported to the regional veterinary office.

Deputy Joe Cooney

We all know that badgers are some of the main culprits, and there is no point in saying that they are not, but-----

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes.

Deputy Joe Cooney

-----we are not really sure about the deer.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

In relation to whether a deer is carrying TB or not, we are fairly sure. It would be a very small percentage that would slip through the net. A very small percentage would get past a trained hunter. You have to undergo the trained hunter course to submit a venison deer carcase into the food chain.

Deputy Joe Cooney

To go back to road safety, is the number of accidents increasing or decreasing year by year?

Mr. Michael Rowland

There has been a year-on-year increase every year from 2019 right the way up to 2025.

Deputy Joe Cooney

Is that a major increase?

Mr. Michael Rowland

In 2019, there were 122 material damage collisions involving deer. Last year, there were 262.

Deputy Joe Cooney

That is a fairly significant increase. I presume most of these accidents with deer happen on local and minor roads.

Mr. Michael Rowland

They are happening in particular in locations where there are high populations of deer.

Deputy Joe Cooney

I presume there have been no fatalities from deer collisions.

Mr. Michael Rowland

There have been no fatalities that we have recorded from 2019 up to 2025. There have been 41 injury collisions, of which 15 were serious injuries and 26 were minor.

Deputy Joe Cooney

It is a concern, as we all know, unfortunately. The good thing is there have not been fatalities. We should do everything as regards safety to make sure there will not be fatalities into the future and, if at all possible, to prevent deer from coming onto any type of a road. It is a big concern, especially by night.

Ms Alison Coleman

The Road Safety Authority has a role in raising awareness. Something we will take away from this meeting will be to make our awareness efforts more targeted, and not only on social media. Maybe we should do targeted media in the likes of Kerry, Wicklow and other counties which the data shows are particularly impacted by this. That is something to take away from today's meeting.

Deputy Joe Cooney

The RSA can include east Clare in that.

Ms Alison Coleman

I might, yes.

Deputy Joe Cooney

It is a concern there as well. I thank the witnesses.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Healy-Rae has been very patient from the start.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I thank the Chairman. I will be precise about this. I will ask questions and I ask for straight answers so that I can get through them quickly because I want to stay within the time. Does the RSA believe that roaming deer pose a serious threat to road users, with the possibility of causing fatalities, serious and minor injuries on our roads? I ask for a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Mr. Michael Rowland

They pose a danger.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

What engagement or concerns, if any, has the RSA raised with the Government or the line Minister with regard to the dangers and accident history caused by deer on our roads?

Mr. Michael Rowland

I am not aware. We would have regular contact, more so with the local authorities and the local road safety officers in terms of the data that we have and in terms of campaigns-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

There is no contact with the Government or line Ministers.

Ms Alison Coleman

Nothing that has been sought from us and we have not been in contact.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The RSA did not seek any meetings whatsoever?

Ms Alison Coleman

On deer, no.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I have listened very carefully to the witnesses' answers about this but I am still going to ask this question because I believe there is under-reporting in a big way, and especially because of the statement that there have been no fatalities. That is actually incorrect-----

Ms Alison Coleman

Since 2019.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Does the RSA hold any statistics on the number of traffic collisions involving animal strikes, namely, by deer and, if not, why not? According to the RSA's new interactive map, there have been over 50,000 collisions on our roads since 2016. Do any of these involve animals?

Mr. Michael Rowland

Yes.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Between 2019 and 2024, the RSA spent €26.2 million on media campaigns. Of that, just shy of €40,000 was spent on advertising where animals are involved regarding horse safety. Why does the RSA not do media campaigns around the dangers posed by deer on our roads? I remind everybody of the eye-watering money the RSA spends on media campaigns. In 2019, it was €4.16 million; in 2020, it was €2.67 million; in 2021, it was €4.35 million; in 2022, it was €4.91 million; and in 2024, the partial figure was €2.3 million. The amount of money the RSA is spending on media campaigns is frightening, and it does not ever mention a deer once. Out of all the millions going through, €40,000 is spent on horses. I ask it to comment on that.

Mr. Michael Rowland

Our role is in research but also in education and to carry out awareness campaigns. That is what we do. The cost of awareness campaigns is expensive. We target the killer behaviours, the behaviours that are most likely to kill or seriously injure people on our roads. These are drink driving, speeding and not wearing seatbelts. They are the major campaigns we do. This is not to say we do not do anything in terms of animals, in particular deer. We have worked with the local authorities and their road safety officers. We have engaged in social media campaigns as well. As my colleague Ms Coleman said, we can engage with the local authorities, in terms of the particular counties that are showing high levels of collisions with deer, on local media campaigns as well.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I want to note a point. It has been stated here that deer, according to the RSA, are causing accidents. They have caused deaths, even though there is under reporting about this because not half of the accidents are being reported. In the county that I represent, County Kerry, there are accident strikes every day in certain areas. They are going under-reported. By the RSA's own admission, it is a serious problem. At the same time, it is spending millions of taxpayers' money every year without once mentioning deer. The RSA, on two individual media campaigns alone, spent €1.7 million. One was the "Lose your Licence, Lose your Independence" campaign, while the other was the 30 km/h town song. Members will know the lovely song it used. Eye-watering money has been spent on a glorified tourism advert, but in no place whatsoever does the RSA ever emphasise the dangers posed by roaming deer on our roads. Before I came to the meeting, I listened twice to the 30 km/h song. I challenge anyone to listen to it before they go to bed tonight. It is more tourism related than related to safety. All of those millions are being spent and still the RSA does not see fit to mention roaming deer coming onto our roads. At the same time, the RSA comes before the committee today to say that, yes, it is a problem, but it will not spend money on it.

Ms Alison Coleman

We have not said that we will not spend money on it.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The RSA is not spending money on it, unless it is going to change its policy after today. Actions speak louder than words. I have raised continuously that the RSA is spending millions and millions every year. The public does not even realise the number of RSA campaigns there are. If the RSA is doing 50 campaigns every year and spending €4.16 million on them, as it did in 2019, it is not being effective. The one thing it should be doing, but it does not seem to place any significance on it, is address the deer that are roaming on our roads.

I am caught for time but I want to ask another couple of questions. From records obtained through parliamentary questions, I have learned that the RSA spent more on a staycationing advert campaign in 2021, to the tune of over €80,000, than it has spent over six years on campaigns around the awareness of deer or any form of animal on our roads and potential threats to our road users. At this stage, and following on from today, in front of the excellent Chairman of this committee, will the RSA please commit to spend something on alerting people to deer coming onto the roads? It is going through money like snuff at a wake.

Mr. Michael Rowland

We can certainly look at it. As we said earlier, we will look at the particular locations where the collisions are occurring and work with the local authorities in terms of campaign activity.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am very thankful to the Chairman. He knows where he comes from and he knows where I come from, and deer are a problem.

I very much welcome it if the RSA is committed to re-evaluating its media campaigns with a view to emphasising the real and potential dangers posed by roaming deer on our roads. I know of individuals affected by this issue, including a father and son. On one morning, the son hit a deer. The following morning, the father was driving the son to work and going on to work himself and he lost his car on the second morning. That was two strikes out of one house in two mornings. They were two honest-to-God people going to work. At the same time, in anything we hear out of the RSA, we never hear a mention of deer. It is not as though the RSA does not mention things. I would challenge anybody to google the RSA's campaigns that cost this State millions upon millions every year. I will tell you one thing: the RSA is keeping some media agencies fairly busy. There are some people making some money out of these media campaigns. I would highly question their effectiveness, with all due respect. Mr. Rowland knows I have been challenging this for a long time. People would actually want to wake up and start looking at what the RSA is doing with its budget. It is missing a big picture when it is not mentioning deer.

Mr. Michael Rowland

As I said, we will look at particular campaigns. To clarify, we are not re-evaluating our campaigns but we will look at activity in relation to deer and the local authorities where those collisions are recorded.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The RSA has the money. It is making up lovely songs and paying piles of people-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I need to move on.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----piles of money. I ask it to look at the deer, please.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I welcome all the witnesses and thank them for coming here. It is very important. All the members have spoken about the damage and harm that deer are doing to people on the roads. Anything that compromises safety is terrible. I have a question in regard to an answer that we did not get here last week. As I have said, the safety of people driving on the roads is the first thing. We can add to that the damage and hurt they care causing farmers in spreading TB. I asked last week what percentage of deer are tested, and it was said that only 2% of deer were infected with TB when they were tested. The Department would not give us the figure. I am hurt about that. If it knows that 2% were infected, it should know the number of deer that were tested. It refused point blank to give us that figure. We are elected members here in this committee and we are entitled to that number. It should not be hidden from us. It was hidden deliberately, I would say to the Chair, because we did not get the answer. The Department of agriculture failed to give it to us. It would not be there at all if it were not for the farmers. There would be no need for a Department of agriculture.

Mr. O'Connor said something that is very central to where I live in County Kerry, where there is an awful prevalence of deer. They have taken over completely, particularly in south Kerry, where the forestry is hiding them. He said it would be better to have concentrated culling rather than doing a bit and coming back. I would like Mr. O'Connor to expand a bit on that because it seems sensible to me. In fact, I honestly think we will not deal with the problem we have in Kilgarvan and south Kerry without bringing in some big team. Maybe it has to be the Army. If we are to make the roads safer, the deer will have to be seen to. I do not know what is meant by "managing deer" but, to me, they have to be got rid of. They have to be shot and culled and that is it. Could Mr. O'Connor explain a bit in regard to what he said about concentrated culling?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

We feel that concentrated culling would have multiple positive impacts on the control of deer. When you are shooting and controlling a large number of deer rapidly, it gives you a quick look at TB-affected deer in the area. It also allows you to expand your hunt area and to keep going until you are free from TB. Now you have controlled the area and you should have harvested enough TB-affected deer. If you need to eradicate in that area, you need to eradicate in that area. You cannot just leave a few because you think you are at a manageable population. If they have TB, you need to kill the deer, and that is just it. The concentrated cull would also be more beneficial to hunters. With a concentrated cull, you could land a temporary cold room in the area. That would give hunters their outlet and save them driving 100 miles with three deer in the back of the jeep for €80, when they are spending €120 on diesel.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am conscious of the clock. In relation to the RSA, surely it must know the problem we have in Kerry. Has it any idea how serious it is and how dangerous the roads are? It was in the news about the Macroom bypass and the problems we have on several of the roads. Is the RSA not taking it seriously?

Mr. Michael Rowland

I thank the Deputy for the question. We do take this seriously. The data show us it is less than 1% but in particular counties it is of major concern. Kerry, as we identified, is one of those counties. I was in Kerry recently with the local road safety officer and we work very closely with the local authorities. Our job is to produce research and education and awareness campaigns. We have given an undertaking there. We have done and continue to do campaigns during the rutting season but we have given an undertaking to look at the particular counties that are more affected to see if we can do local media campaigns in conjunction with the local road safety officer.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

All right. A previous speaker said that he was glad there were no fatalities. I cannot agree with that because we know we have had fatalities. A mother of three young children lost her life in Ballydowney swerving from deer. A man from Kenmare lost his life coming down Moll's Gap. When he was coming into Muckross, he avoided deer and hit a tree. They are dead. Dead people cannot talk but we are fairly sure that is what happened to those two people. There are others I cannot bring to mind. People have been seriously injured. There are young fellas after paying for insurance to get on the road who are glad to be going to work in the mornings - it is not as if they are out at night - but the deer make flitters of their cars. This is happening in certain areas like Kilcummin. It is not all along the main roads. It is happening on the byroads and class 3 roads. It is happening there. The deer hop out over the ditches.

I cannot see any real way of dealing with it other than culling them. Almighty God, it has been said in Europe that sika deer are vermin. We cannot touch the red deer, which are the national herd. We cannot touch them but we still have to make our roads safe, even with them. They are treated as vermin now in Europe. Why should we be trying to spare or save them? The phrase "deer management" is alien to me. The only thing is to get rid of them. That is the gospel truth. I would not hurt a hair on anyone's head. I appreciate wild animals, but not when they are causing mayhem on our roads. We know what is being done with fellas who just want to have two pints and drive home on a country road. They are not even allowed to do that. We should have zero tolerance of deer on the road. The RSA should get behind this. It should be front and forward in getting rid of them completely out of the countryside for the safety of people's lives.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. We have the opportunity to allow members to ask a few more questions if they are minded to do so. Will we do four or five minutes?

Deputy William Aird

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Aird.

Deputy William Aird

The RSA data shows there were 41 injury collisions involving deer and avoidance of deer between 2019 and 2025 with non-fatal casualties. Does this suggest that deer are a low-impact road safety risk or is it that there is under-reporting or misclassification in the data?

Given the concentration of claims in counties such as Kerry, Cork and Wicklow, do representatives from FBD Insurance believe enough resources and co-ordination are currently in place at local level to manage deer populations effectively?

The CCMA has called for stronger data sharing between local authorities, the RSA, An Garda Síochána and the deer management units. What is currently preventing that co-ordination from happening effectively? The CCMA highlighted the impact of deer on biodiversity and native woodland regeneration, which is huge for every local authority including Laois. In the view of the CCMA, are deer populations now undermining the State's ability to meet its biodiversity and nature restoration targets?

Mr. Michael Rowland

I will take the question on data. The Garda records data and we report on the data the Garda records. We get regular daily downloads from the Garda in relation to the collisions data it records on its system. We interrogate that data to inform our interventions and to inform communications with committees like this one. The numbers that have been reported are the numbers that have been recorded by An Garda Síochána, so I cannot comment any more on that. There has been some reference in relation to fatalities. Certainly, it does not come up in our data that there have been fatalities between 2019 and 2025. The strongest thing that strikes me is the material-damage collisions, of which there were 1,382 during that period.

Mr. Ciaran Roche

Coming back to whether enough is being done in relation to the management of deer, it is important the strategy is put in place because it is the number of deer that is the real issue here. It is at the heart of deer numbers on the roads. We need to manage that unsustainable number of deer we have in Ireland. It is about ensuring that project is successful going forward.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

Mr. Rowland has outlined the process through which information is shared with the RSA, but we do not get that information.

Deputy William Aird

You should.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

We should and we need it in order to do all our various road safety projects. We are awaiting legislation to pass through the Oireachtas to allow that data to be shared with us, but we are waiting a couple of years now. It is a bit frustrating from our perspective that we do not have that information but are still awaiting it. We have no detailed information on the types of accidents that are occurring-----

Deputy William Aird

That is something that is very clearly coming out of this meeting.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

----or where they are happening.

In terms of biodiversity, an overpopulation of deer has a negative impact on biodiversity so it is important from our perspective that there is an appropriate population of deer, whatever that might be. It is not for us to decide and there are other agencies that are expert in that. It seems to us, from a biodiversity perspective, that there is an overpopulation of deer in certain areas and they are having a negative impact.

Deputy William Aird

I will ask a question about TB testing. I have to compliment the NARGC as it is very proactive. When they shoot the deer, they try to get the Department to test them. They are testing negative. I count some years as being very high from the perspective of the number of deer shot and the number of deer proved to be positive. That is alarming as far as I am concerned. For farmers in every county, an outbreak of TB can be as a result of this because deer are showing up where they never were before. I recently spoke to a farmer who told me he was coming home one night and saw a deer across the road from his farm, and he had never seen a deer in his life before. His farm is a good bit, at least 15 miles, from the woods, so they are travelling more and more. Whether that is in search of food or what it is I do not know, but it is probably something to do with the overpopulation as well. From a TB point of view, it is alarming to think these are the statistics the NARGC got. I compliment it on the work it is doing because if it is helping to cull like that, it is preventing TB in some way. The one thing I am fearful of is the amount of travelling deer as a group do.

Mr. John Butler

We are curtailed for time, but in relation to the deer population we have to ask what happened. Whether we like it or not, for three years deerstalkers in this country were not allowed to cull deer due to Covid. There was an explosion in the population of deer. Deer are wild animals. They are not domesticated animals. There was an explosion in population and they have seriously multiplied since. There are efforts being made to try to manage and curtail that. I like to hear people say they would like the population back to a sustainable level because that is what we want. I must take issue with Deputy Healy-Rae's assertion that deer are classified as vermin in Europe. They are not classified as vermin.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

They are.

An Cathaoirleach

Do not draw him on.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

They certainly are.

An Cathaoirleach

One speaker, please.

Mr. John Butler

Sika deer are classified as an invasive species, but if we get into the nuts of bolts of invasive species I do not know where we are going to stop because there are a lot of invasive species. Deer have been here before the people in this House were here and, hopefully, they will be here long after that.

An Cathaoirleach

Not the sika deer. People were here before the sika.

Mr. John Butler

Yes, but I am talking about the people here currently.

An Cathaoirleach

Sika were only recently introduced.

Mr. John Butler

I am talking about the people who are here currently. A sustainable population of deer is what I think we are all striving to achieve. However, I do not think any game species should be classified as vermin, especially given the good that deer and venison can provide to people in this country and other countries. Management is what it is all about.

An Cathaoirleach

I must move on to Deputy Newsome Drennan.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Mr. Butler said the NARGC was in here before and that these conversations were had before. How long ago was that and were any commitments given in relation to data collection? From those conversations, is that where the Irish deer management strategy group came from?

Mr. John Butler

It was, yes. Unfortunately, the previous recommendations that went to Government only went to the level of the recommendations going into the Departments. However, the management of deer and the management of nature is a complex issue in itself. As I said, it is overseen on this island by the National Parks and Wildlife Service.

The National Parks and Wildlife Service had a major independent review a number of years ago. One of the recommendations from that review was the setting up of a permanent forum for nature in Ireland. That commitment was brought to the Government and accepted by the Government. We have been given a number of dates for that forum to be set up on a permanent footing and each one of those dates in the last three years have been missed. The benefits of that forum being set up would not only be to ensure the recommendations coming from the deer management forum were acted upon and carried through, it would encompass the management of all species, birds and animals in Ireland, nature and their habitat. I urge this committee to push on the Minister responsible to put that permanent structured forum, which was an independent recommendation accepted by the Government, into place and into action. The key stakeholders would be on that permanent forum and they would advise the Minister of the day. The likes of that would ensure the slippage we have seen over the last number of years regarding how we manage crises and problems in nature and habitat does not happen again.

I am not saying it will completely wipe it out but it will go a long way towards ensuring that it is kept to fore, particularly in instances like this, where currently we have a problem with deer. There is no doubting that but I would imagine, given the proper resources and with the proper structures in place, in a number of years we will have a very manageable population of deer in Ireland and that is the way it should be.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

My next question is for Mr. O'Connor. If I come across a deer that I suspect has TB, what is the format then?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

The process then is that you contact your regional veterinary office and it is supposed to send a vet to the area to carry out an inspection. The vet will take away the deer carcass and carry out an inspection.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

If the deer is found to have TB, what does the vet do then to cull the rest of the deer? Does the vet contact the NARGC and ask it to go into the area to wipe out or cull more animals?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

Yes. I would imagine that a co-ordination plan would be put in place between the farmer who owns the land and the Department of agriculture and then the hunter would be brought on board to carry out the cull.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Instead of going to the NARGC to inform it of what has happened, will the vets and the Irish Government now go to the Irish deer management strategy group? If so, what will it do then? There are 15 units. Are they hunters, clerical staff or managers? Who do they go to to cull the deer?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

They are managers. I am not 100% sure about who they go to. They can go to hunters but I suppose they can do a lot of it themselves. A lot of the deer management strategy group managers are hunters themselves and so are available to do a lot of the culling themselves.

On the TB testing, in the pilot project that I synopsised earlier, the farmer went to FRS about carrying out a cull on his farm. He told FRS that he wanted TB testing done on the animals that were shot but the FRS told him that it was not something it could facilitate. That is why he reverted to us to do it.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

That is wrong. Control has to be done. I am struggling to see what these 15 deer management units are going to do that was not already being done. The data should have been collected long before now. They are telling us that we will not have data until September 2027.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

There is no data.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

They are saying that are going to start collecting data in September and it will be the following year before we get it. I am wondering how they are going to get it when I know that back in 2022, when they started this, they had only spoken to 1,500 people. I do not know what the figures for hunters were back then but now they are saying there are around 7,000 licensed hunters and yet they only spoke to 1,500. They were not even getting the people who were doing the work already on board. I do not like to see us putting money down a drain and the likes of TB, which is so important to farmers, not being taken on board. This should have been thought about long before now. This should have been done back in 2022 when they were given their job. They should have been told that part of their work was to try to eradicate TB and that deer have a part to play in that.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

It is a fact that the sika deer, otherwise known as Jap deer, were imported in here some time in the last century. I do not know the date. They were not here before then. We always had the red deer. There is another issue that we have to be aware of as well. My daughter, Councillor Máire Healy-Rae, has raised the issue of Lyme disease several times with Kerry County Council and has also written to the Minister for Health about it. I would not wish it on anyone. A strong, powerful man who was playing football from Kerry cannot lift a balloon now and mothers with children cannot mind them. They cannot change their nappies and that is a fact. The deer are spreading that Lyme tick.

Mr. Butler said that we must manage the deer. There is only one way that I know to keep the deer off the roads and out of farms and that is to shoot them. If he knows of some other way of managing them, I want to hear about it. It is no good telling deer not to come down onto the road or into Paddy Mick's place above or Seán Murphy's place below. How can we manage them? To be realistic about it, we cannot manage them and that is why we are here talking for the last three hours. We were here last week as well. The fact is we cannot make it safe without shooting these deer. We are bound by the red deer. They are part of the national herd that has been here going way back. I do not know how far back but these deer will have to be cut away down all together. There is no way of managing them, to be honest. I am not being smart or anything but we will have to cut down the numbers. There is no way of catching them or bringing them home. I do not know of it anywhere. If Mr. Butler knows of it, let us get lorries, load them up and carry them away out of the place because we have enough of them anyway. Tim Herlihy in Rathmore and all of the farmers from west of Valentia island are robbed and broke because of the TB and it hurt the mental health of some people. That is a fact. The worst of it all is to lose someone. That is the worst but they can damage the cars of people who are going carefully to work, coming home from work or of young mothers taking their children to the doctor or whatever. We cannot have that. It might hurt some people to shoot them but the fact is that there is no other way of managing them unless we want to stun them, load them up and take them somewhere else, but where is that place? It is not practical to fence every ditch along every road from A to Z. That is not practical so I cannot see any other way apart from employing people, no matter who they are. We will have to get rid of them and make the roads safe. That is our duty. People are paying tax and insurance to go on the road and at least they should be able to travel the roads safely. We are here, elected by the people, and they are depending on us to do something that will be effective. The phrase "deer management" is driving me cuckoo because I know that I have failed to manage them even though I have fences up. I still have them but that is not the worst at all. The road is the serious thing. People are being killed and maimed on the roads and we will have to do something about that. If anyone wants to say anything more, I am happy to listen.

Mr. John Butler

When I said manage the deer population, I did not rule out shooting them because I am a deer stalker myself. I shoot deer. Mr. O'Connor shoots deer. The word "management" refers to maintaining the population of deer at a sustainable or practical level in the country. The Deputy is highlighting problem areas in Kerry and that is where they want to put a serious management plan in place to cull those numbers, which includes shooting the deer. I do not have a problem with shooting deer. I am shooting deer all of my life. I have been shooting deer for over 50 years. It is part and parcel of my culture. It is not something I have a problem with. I was reared on the land and off the land. I have absolutely no problem with that aspect of it whatsoever. To me, vermin means rats and stuff like that.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

They are called vermin by Europe as well. It was not me who thought up the word.

Mr. John Butler

I firmly believe that the deer population can be managed.

An Cathaoirleach

We are getting tight on time. I am conscious that Deputy Aird wants to get in with a quick question. I have a couple of questions as well. Deputy Aird may proceed.

Deputy William Aird

At the previous meeting, it was indicated that €3.6 million was allocated by the Department over four years, which amounts to €900,000 per year. That funding was awarded to FRS to come up with a plan, for want of a better word, for culling deer. Mr. O'Connor just said that FRS was asked out to come out and test deer for TB, after they were shot, but they refused to do it. I stand to be corrected but I understood from the discussion last week that, regarding the €3.6 million that was given by the Department for the culling of deer, the most important thing is that if culling were happening in County Laois today, for example, those deer would be tested for TB. That is the most important thing to do in order that we can eventually, having spent that money, build up a database showing the situation in the different areas throughout the country. I know there will be a problem with the Six Counties and having to go over and back across the Border. Be that as it may, I was hoping we would be able to say that Kerry has the highest level of TB among deer and Laois the lowest, or whatever it might be. It seems a fair expectation. Am I right in that?

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

All I would ask is what good is the data if we are not going to deal with the problem. Counting deer is only the biggest cod in the world because we know there will be 20% more if we go back tomorrow. We would be all the time counting them. We must do something reasonable, like pay for the bullets for the shooters. Some kind of funding must be put towards the shooting of the deer. Counting them and collecting data is all nonsense.

Deputy William Aird

A sum of €3.6 million has been given. That is taxpayers' money.

An Cathaoirleach

We will try to get answers for the Deputies on that point. I am conscious of the people watching at home who were hoping their questions would be raised, including those who, over the past few days, sent in questions either directly to members or otherwise. Of the two questions addressed to me, one is for the local authorities, which are very involved with land purchase and building new roads. To what extend is wildlife management, including deer management, taken into account when new roads are being built? When the N22 from Macroom to Baile Bhuirne was being built, for instance, underpasses were built or modified to allow wildlife through. I am conscious that a vote is being called in the House. Will the witnesses indicate whether that practice was an exception? To what extent is wildlife, including deer, management taken into account when new roads are being built?

The second question raised with me is for the hunters. There is often a great deal of engagement with landowners regarding shooting because permissions and so on are being sought. There are a large number of people living in rural Ireland who are not landowners but who have an interest in when shooting is going on. They are conscious of the shots being fired at night in the wood beside them. They might walk about and meet groups of people with guns. They will see the headlight below in the field when a kill is being cleaned out, etc. They are often taken by surprise by all of that. Is there any communication with rural people when a shoot is going on in an area? Is there any possibility for signage to be put up to make people aware they will be hearing shots that night, or is the assumption that they will be taken by surprise and must grow accustomed to hearing shots and meeting groups of armed people and people with headlights in a field? Those two questions, which I address to the local authority and the hunting representatives, respectively, are questions people at home want to ensure are asked.

Mr. Barry Kehoe

The consideration of impacts on wildlife, flora and fauna is fundamental to any road scheme the local authorities, TII, the NTA or anybody else might design. There is a particular requirement to consider the potential impact on designated sites and protected species. By "designated sites" I mean Natura 2000 sites, special areas of conservation, special protection areas and natural heritage areas. We must be sure before a scheme is put forward that those impacts are minimised to a level that they will not affect those species or those areas. Thereafter, we put forward the scheme, with mitigation if necessary, to An Bord Pleanála for approval. A full environmental impact assessment is prepared, as well as a Natura 2000 impact assessment. Those documents go into the public domain, are examined by the statutory authorities and eventually a decision is made by An Coimisúin Pleanála as to whether the scheme can go ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it typical that measures would be taken on a road scheme to facilitate wildlife?

Mr. Barry Kehoe

Yes, that is a typical installation now, particularly on motorways and more substantial roads where there might be a barrier in the centre of the road. In those cases, we have to put in underpasses for wildlife, including badger passes and passes for all other small fauna in the area, to allow them to pass safely under the road, as they have passed for hundreds and thousands of years before the road was built. Those passageways go in on all the major road schemes and we must maintain them.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kehoe. My other question was about communication with non-landowners in rural areas.

Mr. John Butler

I am not sure I can answer the full extent of that question. Normal deer-stalking takes place in the early morning and late evening. If it is on private land, it is done with the permission of the landowner. From a courtesy perspective, if there are private dwellings within the surrounding area, those residents would be notified that deer-stalkers will be operating. That is not a legal requirement but it is what I do from a courtesy point of view. Shooting deer at night-time requires a special licence. It is not something I do or know much about. There is a special permission requirement under section 42 of the Wildlife Act to do it, with lots of additional steps to which the applicant must adhere. It is done under a special licence, which does not apply to normal deer-stalking or deer culling.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Butler. The division bells are ringing. One of the witnesses might quickly address Deputy Aird's question, or if they do not feel there is sufficient time to do so, they could send a response to the committee.

Deputy William Aird

I asked about the €900,000 that is being given out every year for the next four years. Will the deer be tested?

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I do not know what FRS's policy is on testing the deer.

Deputy William Aird

That will have to be checked.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a different organisation.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

It is not doing great engagement.

Mr. Shane O'Connor

I will get back to the committee on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the witnesses write to the committee to address any other questions that remain unanswered? Members can likewise address any further questions they have to the secretariat. A vote has been called in the past few minutes. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their participation and for the wealth of information they have shared.

The joint committee adjourned at 5:58 p.m. until 3:30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 May 2026.

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