Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 2026

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Recruitment and Retention of Veterinary Nurses: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Senator Paul Daly. I will run through a note on privilege with the witnesses. I bring to their attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside of the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precinct and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings of the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed. The members participating are in the room. There are no members online at the moment.

Today, we will resume our discussion of issues relating to the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses. The committee is going to hear from the following representatives of Veterinary Ireland: Mr. Eoin Glynn, president; Mr. Allen Dunne, vice-president; and Mr. Finbarr Murphy, chief executive. Cuirim fáilte rompu. From the Veterinary Council of Ireland, we have Mr. Leo Kearns, acting registrar and chief executive officer; Mr. Paul McDermott, chair of the veterinary nursing committee; Ms Emily Murray, former chair of the veterinary nursing committee; Ms Niamh Hogan, chair of the practices committee; and Mr. Alan Gallagher, elected Veterinary Council member. Cuirim fáilte rompu.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. I will give the witnesses five minutes to read their opening statements or to provide a synopsis. We will then go on to questions and answers with the members.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

We thank the committee and the Chair for the opportunity to contribute to the committee's consideration of issues around recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses. Veterinary Ireland is the trade union and professional representative body for veterinary practitioners in Ireland. Our members include those private veterinary practitioners, PVPs, engaged in farm animal, companion animal, equine and mixed veterinary practice. Of these members, those engaged in companion animal veterinary practice, equine practice and mixed practice have the most engagement with registered veterinary nurses, who form an integral part of the practice team in the delivery of veterinary services to the public. Private veterinary practitioners play a centrally important role in Ireland's agrifood sector, our largest indigenous sector, as well as having a central role in looking after the health and welfare of our companion animals, including in our equine sector. Companion animals are increasingly seen as an extension of our families and veterinary practitioners and veterinary nurses play an increasingly large role in looking after their veterinary needs.

Veterinary Ireland appreciates the concerns highlighted by the Irish Veterinary Nursing Association, IVNA, as the representative body for veterinary nurses in Ireland. We particularly note the concerns around pay and working conditions, the retention difficulties in the veterinary nursing sector, the perceived lack of recognition and poor utilisation of the skills of nurses in practice, the lack of career progression opportunities, and poor work-life balance. Many of these concerns apply equally to veterinary practitioners in that there are also issues around recruitment and retention of qualified veterinary practitioners in veterinary practice. The average salary of veterinary assistant veterinary practitioners employed in Ireland is just €50,307 per annum versus €36,800 for registered veterinary nurses. Many veterinary practitioners also choose to leave private veterinary practice to take up more attractive positions in industry or education or full-time veterinary inspector positions within the State veterinary services.

It is worth noting that, since the formal recognition of the profession of registered veterinary nurse by the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, in 2008, as provided for under the Veterinary Practice Act 2005, the number of registered veterinary nurses has increased from 324 in 2008 to 1,391 at present, a 329% increase in registrants. This is a clear recognition by the veterinary profession in Ireland of the important and valuable role played by veterinary nurses. It is also worth noting that the number of registered veterinary practitioners on the VCI register has grown significantly over the past decade, from 2,473 registered veterinary practitioners on 31 December 2015 to 3,813 on 31 December 2025, a 54% increase in registrants. These increases in the number of registrants have been borne by veterinary practices, which have employed greater numbers of veterinary nurses and veterinary practitioners, somewhat at the expense of veterinary practitioners' own personal incomes, in order to achieve a better work-life balance in working conditions.

With reference to the salaries of veterinary nurses and veterinary practitioners, it should be noted that there is no State subvention to pay the salaries or business expenses associated with the running of veterinary practices. In the case of the employment of registered veterinary nurses, practice nurses employed by general practitioners in human medicine might represent a parallel in terms of private sector employment. However, the State subsidises their employment through practice support subsidies to GPs under the General Medical Services, GMS, scheme. These subsidies range from €42,276 at point 1 of the scale to €52,500 at point 4. The scheme also reimburses the employers' PRSI contribution. GPs also receive practice support subsidies in respect of their employment of practice managers and practice administration staff as well as receiving huge financial subvention for the provision of out-of-hours services. In contrast to the State subventions available to those working in the human health services, there is no State subvention available to support the provision of veterinary services in Ireland. All costs relating to the employment of veterinary practitioners, veterinary nurses, animal care assistants, practice managers and practice support staff and all regulatory costs and costs relating to professional indemnity insurance, premises and equipment therefore have to be borne directly from fee income paid by the public.

Retention is an issue that should receive greater attention for both veterinary nurses and veterinary practitioners. Along with veterinary practices as employers, the State may have a role to play through greater supports from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Mr. Paul McDermott

I will give a synopsis of our submission. I am an elected veterinary practitioner council member of the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, and chair of the veterinary nursing committee. I was also county veterinary officer in Mayo. I thank the committee for inviting the Veterinary Council of Ireland to appear today to assist in its consideration of the issues of recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses. I believe the committee has our opening statement, so in the interests of time I will outline the details of it.

I am joined by Mr. Leo Kearns, acting registrar and acting CEO of the Veterinary Council of Ireland, and Ms Niamh Hogan, elected veterinary practitioner council member of the VCI and chair of the practice premises committee, who works at a mixed practice in County Tipperary. I am also joined by Mr. Alan Gallagher, elected veterinary nurse council member of the VCI and a companion animal nurse in Dublin, and Ms Emily Murray, former elected veterinary nurse council member of the VCI and former chair of the veterinary nursing committee, who also works with companion animals in Dublin.

Before addressing the Veterinary Council's role, I acknowledge the contribution made every day by registered veterinary nurses across Ireland. They are highly skilled professionals whose work is fundamental to animal health and welfare, patient care and the delivery of veterinary services. We recognise both their professionalism and the challenges many currently face. As members may be aware, an earlier invitation to attend a previous joint Oireachtas committee meeting on 17 June was withdrawn. Unfortunately, this appears to have given rise to a misunderstanding that the Veterinary Council had declined to attend. This was not the case. The Veterinary Council welcomed the opportunity to engage then, and we welcome the opportunity to do so now.

The Veterinary Council is an independent statutory body set up under the Veterinary Practice Act, as amended, under the aegis of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The principal function of the Veterinary Council is to regulate and manage the practice of veterinary medicine and veterinary nursing in the Republic of Ireland, in the interest of animal health and welfare and in the interest of veterinary public health. It is important to distinguish that role from matters that fall outside our statutory remit. The Veterinary Council does not set salaries, determine employment conditions or negotiate industrial relations matters. They are matters for employers, employees and their representative organisations. However, where workforce issues intersect with our statutory responsibility, the Veterinary Council has sought to play a constructive leadership role. The Veterinary Council recognises that recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses is one of the most significant challenges currently facing the profession. We also recognise that this is a complex challenge with no single solution. It requires the collective efforts of Government, employers, representative organisations and the regulator.

The veterinary nursing committee is a statutory committee operating under the Veterinary Council of Ireland and its primary role is to support the VCI in discharging its statutory duties, specifically in relation to the nursing profession. The committee meets at least four times per year and provides regular support to the Veterinary Council in its deliberations and recommendations. The committee has nine members, six of whom are registered veterinary nurses, including one Irish Veterinary Nurses Association nominee. There are currently five registered veterinary nurses, RVNs, and one RVN vacancy on the committee.

The Veterinary Council formally acknowledges the committee's significant contribution to informing the Veterinary Council's decision-making. The Veterinary Council's workforce review report and implementation plan recognises the importance of workforce planning. The Veterinary Council commissioned the first comprehensive veterinary workforce review, published in 2025. That report provided an independent evidence base on recruitment, retention and workforce trends across both the veterinary practitioner and veterinary nursing professions. It identified veterinary nursing workforce sustainability as a priority.

The Veterinary Council has also revised the accreditation standards for veterinary nursing education to ensure nursing graduates are equipped for the evolving needs of veterinary practice. The Veterinary Council is reviewing the code of professional conduct to ensure it remains fit for a modern profession. The Veterinary Council produced the role and scope of the veterinary nurse guidance document. The document was designed to promote the role of the veterinary nurse and to increase understanding and awareness of the veterinary nursing profession and aims to highlight the value veterinary nurses add to animal health and welfare, supporting greater use of their skills and helping to clarify their role within the veterinary team.

The Veterinary Council has also identified a number of legislative amendments, which set out to strengthen the regulatory framework for veterinary nurses. The legislative amendments were provided to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for consideration in early 2024. Repeated engagement has occurred with the Department throughout the period.

The Veterinary Council's report confirms that retention is a significant challenge across both veterinary nursing and veterinary professions. It also provides valuable evidence on the factors influencing career decisions. Many of those factors, including pay, employment conditions and career structures, extend beyond the Veterinary Council's statutory powers. Nevertheless, the evidence provides an important foundation for informed policy development and collaborative action across the sector. While regulation alone cannot resolve every workforce challenge, effective regulation helps maintain public confidence, supports high professional standards and creates the conditions in which veterinary nurses can build rewarding and sustainable careers.

The Veterinary Council is committed to playing its full part in addressing those matters that fall within our statutory remit. It will continue to work constructively with all stakeholders.

An Cathaoirleach

We will open the discussion to the floor. Given the number of members present, we will have ten minutes per member. There are also votes under way in the Dáil, so members may have to come and go.

Senator Victor Boyhan

For the information of members and visitors, it is a two-way engagement in that ten-minute period,

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I thank the witnesses for coming. Will they explain the line, "The average salary of veterinary assistant veterinary practitioners employed in Ireland is just €50,307 per annum versus €36,800 for registered veterinary nurses"? Is that for a young vet? Will the witnesses explain that?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

That figure was taken from our benchmark survey of the profession in 2020-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Will Mr. Murphy explain both figures? I know one if for veterinary nurses, but what about the other one?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

I will explain it. It is the average salary for a veterinary assistant who is an employee in a veterinary practice. The average salary in the same survey for principals or partners in practice was €96,000. If we take that-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Let me get my head around this. When Mr. Murphy refers to an "assistant", is that the person who runs the place? If someone goes into a practice, is it the person who take the cards and gets them signed, or whatever is done? Is that what he is on about?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

No, they are fully qualified practising vets within the practice, but they are employees of the practice, as young vets. They are not the principals or partners.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

They are the new vets that land in.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

As regards their availability, is it pretty good at the moment?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

It is pretty good I suppose. Historically, if we were dependent on the number of places in UCD, we would have had a huge shortage, but we have had a huge supply of vets-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

From other countries.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Yes, Irish vets studying abroad. For example, since 2019, the number of vets on the register has gone from 2,933 to 3,830.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I do hire work, and I get a trained machine driver as against someone who cannot drive a machine. Is Mr. Murphy saying to me that at €50,000, and probably prudently enough, that person can go out and pull a calf or pull lambs or do whatever you want? Is he saying that because they can be employed at €50,000, it is not as attractive to take on a veterinary nurse at €38,000 because they cannot do those things? That is the reading I have of it.

Mr. Allen Dunne

I work in a small practice. I am the principal, and I have two qualified vets working with me. I employ two veterinary nurses. My practice is mixed. The assistant on €50,000, who starts off fresh from college, is qualified to do anything I am qualified to do, like go out to pull a calf, examine a cow, dog or cat, and make a clinical decision. Veterinary nurses are somewhat different. They work more in-house and are more aligned with our small animal business. While they do give-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Mr. Dunne has veterinary nurses. Will he tell us what they can do? When they were in with us previously, they explained that they could not administer injections or operate. Basically, their role was nearly just to hold the dog while the vet did the work.

Mr. Allen Dunne

No, they are not vets, so they are not qualified to operate on an animal. However, they are qualified to do things like take bloods. They are qualified to X-ray animals, but they are not qualified to interpret X-rays. They are qualified to insert intravenous cannulas, which is the same as in human medicine. They are basically qualified to do everything to an animal that a human nurse is qualified to do, if that makes sense.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Do they give injections?

Mr. Allen Dunne

They are qualified to inject under the direction and prescription of a veterinary surgeon.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

In the witnesses' opinion, should there be an overall re-examination of what a veterinary nurse is? I would like to know the views of both parties on this. Should a veterinary nurse be trained to test cattle for TB? Yes or no?

Mr. Allen Dunne

Probably not.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Why not?

Mr. Allen Dunne

TB testing is an interpretive test. The test is interpreted by the vet carrying it out. On a practical-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Can anyone not be trained to do it?

Mr. Allen Dunne

I do not know. Maybe we will ask the Veterinary Council that. I will give the Deputy my thoughts. I heard this question the last day and thought quite a bit about it. I asked what would happen in my practice if I had a trained veterinary nurse doing my TB testing. We have three vets. We are a mixed practice and provide large-animal, small-animal and equine cover. If I had a veterinary nurse or registered technician doing this sort of work, I would probably lose one of the two vets I employ. I would therefore have one less vet in the practice. I have to have a vet on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. The vet left working with me would go from a one-in-three rota to a one-in-two rota. That person would come to me and say that when they started, it was one in three and that it is now one in two, and that because they do not really want to work to the latter, they are afraid they are going to have to leave.

I would find it very difficult, in this day and age, to get somebody to work every second weekend for me and provide 24-hour cover. Following on from that, I would have to look at my large-animal practice and ask whether it was financially feasible to do the amount of work myself. I would have to ask whether I would be better off doing small-animal work and perhaps running my on-call service with another small-animal practice 40 miles away. My farm-animal clients would suffer because I would not be there for them. My small-animal clients would suffer because, on the weekends that I would be off, they would have to drive 40 miles to have their animals attended to.

Taking veterinary work away from qualified vets might sound like a good idea, but we could end up in a situation where there are fewer vets on the ground in rural Ireland to attend to sick animals, be they large, small or equine.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I was not talking about taking the cut and thrust of the veterinary work away. I specifically spoke about TB testing the last day.

Mr. Allen Dunne

Yes, I know the Deputy did. The reality of farm-animal practice-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

It could take pressure off it. That is what I was considering.

Mr. Allen Dunne

It might in the short term. In my practice, I am extremely busy for a couple of months of the year. For the rest of the year, I am not that busy with farm-animal work. Hence, I run a mixed practice. I am trying to even out the peaks and troughs. Farm-animal vets are extremely busy, as the Deputy well knows, during the spring for a number of weeks or months. They are not so busy at this time of year or in the autumn or winter. We probably need work to smooth out those peaks and troughs.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Reference was made to the nursing profession and then veterinary nurses. What are the comparable salaries?

Mr. Allen Dunne

I am not too sure.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Does the Deputy mean in human medicine?

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Say a person trains as a nurse in human medicine-----

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

They start on salaries of around €48,000-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

They are on approximately €10,000 more than a veterinary nurse.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

It is from €46,000 to €56,000, but it can go up to approximately €130,000 for management grades. It is similar to the difference between veterinary salaries. The average salary for all vets with more than 11 years' experience in Ireland came out at €82,000 in a recent survey, so-----

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

What I am trying to establish is that vets are busy at certain times of the year, as the witnesses have alluded to. There could be a weekend when they never get to bed if they are on call or whatever. I understand all that. If we have a problem with many veterinary nurses leaving the profession, and if in the witnesses' opinion there is a need for veterinary nurses, how do we make the profession of veterinary nursing more attractive? Do we need to revamp it so the nurses could do more to help the vets?

It has been alluded to that if a vet is working for the boss of a veterinary practice, he or she can go up the ladder fairly quickly. If someone is in the HSE, he or she can do so also. Veterinary nurses do not seem to be on that scale as such. Why is there an exodus from the profession, and what is the solution to that?

Mr. Eoin Glynn

I thank the Deputy. It is important to understand the huge variation in practices across the country. There is a huge difference between a small-animal hospital in Dublin, for argument's sake, and a mixed practice in Mayo. It is important that each practice have the autonomy to use the resources at hand to provide the best service to clients. We are all in our roles to ensure the best standards of animal welfare are upheld daily.

With regard to hiring, there might be much more use for veterinary nurses in a small-animal hospital, where there are many inpatients. As Mr. Dunne said, they mainly remain in-house rather than attending farm calls and so on.

The other important thing to remember is that if I brought a veterinary nurse with me in the middle of the night to a Caesarean section or another farm call, the costs would unfortunately have to increase. I do not think anyone is in favour of that. It is already considered expensive enough to get a vet out to a cow calving or something like that.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I did not hear anything at all from the hierarchy of the Veterinary Council of Ireland. It does not seem to have a view on anything I spoke about. What is the reason?

Mr. Paul McDermott

On TB testing, the Veterinary Council of Ireland is the regulatory body. We regard TB testing as an act of veterinary medicine. It involves both diagnosis and certification. Therefore, as far as we are concerned, it is not within the scope of what veterinary nurses can perform.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I know it is not within the scope, but has the council considered working with the vets around the country to see what new things could be introduced to make the profession more attractive, retain people in it, give them a fairly good wage and get more young people involved? At certain times of the year, vets are out the door under pressure.

Mr. Paul McDermott

Yes, we have.

Ms Niamh Hogan

I can comment on that. We have already produced a document called The Role and Scope of Practice of the Veterinary Nurse. We are expanding on that at the moment and ascertaining how we can better integrate nurses into farm and equine practices. We acknowledge that their penetration into these types of practices has not been the same as their uptake in companion-animal practices. We are looking at having them do things such as taking bloods. They could assist during a caesarean section by looking after the calf, for example.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Hold on a second now. If you listen to Mr. Glynn and to a farmer, you will note that a vet generally does the caesarean section and that you do not need an army doing it. If there is an army at it, it is going to cost an awful lot more. Whatever about the situation within the practice when, for example, a dog is brought in to have pups, one has to watch the side Mr. Glynn mentioned also. Does Ms Hogan agree?

Ms Niamh Hogan

I agree, but, again, the Veterinary Council does not have a role in setting prices. Our role is to promote and utilise nurses to the best of their ability.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

Okay. I thank the witnesses.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome all the witnesses here today and thank them for attending.

I am looking at the press release announcing today's meeting and the witnesses' appearing before the committee. We have to remain focused on our task. The simple topic for debate today is the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses, and I am going to stay pretty focused on it.

The first thing I want to ask is about the relationship between Veterinary Ireland and the Veterinary Council of Ireland. In a sentence, can one person from each tell me what the relationship is?

Is there dual membership of both organisations?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Veterinary Ireland is a registered trade union on behalf of private veterinary practitioners. Some of our members could be members of the Veterinary Council or they may not be, because Veterinary Ireland membership is voluntary whereas every vet and veterinary nurse who wants to practise has to be registered with the Veterinary Council of Ireland. It has everybody registered.

Senator Victor Boyhan

What is the comment in terms of the Veterinary Council?

Mr. Leo Kearns

The Veterinary Council is the regulator for the veterinary practitioners and veterinary nurses. That means that if you want to practise as a vet or veterinary nurse in Ireland, you must be registered with the Veterinary Council for education and training and so on.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That clarifies that, and I thank the witnesses for that clarity because it is important for people listening in, they would not necessarily know what the relationship was. They might have thought they were two similar organisations doing the same type of thing, but there is a distinct difference, and that is important. I welcome the Veterinary Council of Ireland's workforce and recruitment report, which we had a look at. I note there are seven key objectives to which it has signed up and agreed. Interestingly enough, the first one is about a commitment to promoting the role of veterinary nurse, but I did not pick up in Mr. McDermott's contribution a heavy emphasis on that, given that it is the first key objective in the workforce planning report. Will he talk on that for a moment? More importantly, I am interested in hearing from Ms Murray or Mr. Gallagher, as I think both of them are veterinary nurses. I direct my question to them because they are on the coalface of it. They are veterinary nurses. Can they tell the committee if they are comfortable with the level of commitment and progress? Do they think that it is fast enough and timely enough in terms of this key objective which is recommendation 1, promoting the role of the veterinary nurse. Can we start with Ms Murray? What is her take on that?

Ms Emily Murray

Veterinary nursing is a relatively new profession as it is. Our first graduates were in 2008, and we have made a lot of progress generally since then. The commitment of the council is definitely there in terms of implementing the recommendations from the workforce report. The council has seen that some of the main issues affecting nurses apply to vets and some of them also affect the welfare and health of our patients. It is definitely something that the council is committed to. In recent years, since this happened, we have added external nursing members to our committees to add to the nursing voice within the Veterinary Council and a number of actions have been taken or are in progress. There is progress.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I will continue with Mr. Gallagher. There are nine members of the Veterinary Council and one veterinary nurse. It struck me that this perhaps is part of the problem. That is only my view. Can we just hear from Mr. Gallagher first? There is one nurse on the Veterinary Council. That is a telling figure. Does Mr. Gallagher have a view, or will he make comment on that?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

I agree that we should have more than one nurse on the Veterinary Council. We are in talks on adding a second nurse to the council as well.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Does Mr. Gallagher see the benefits of that?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Yes, I do.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is great to hear.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

We also have a veterinary nursing committee that has five veterinary nurses on it and we are always trying to increase the scope of what the veterinary nurse can do. On ultrasonography, we have just recently added in that nurses also are able to do an ultrasound on a patient. We are always trying to improve the scope of the veterinary nurse to retain our veterinary nurses in Ireland.

Senator Victor Boyhan

My takeaway from that is that Mr. Gallagher thinks that it would be more beneficial to have additional nurses on the council. That is an important sharing. Is Mr. Gallagher happy with the pace of change within the Veterinary Council in terms of the focus on what we are here to talk about today, namely, the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Yes, it goes back to the comment that we are in talks about adding a second nurse onto the council. We do not have any data on when that will happen, but hopefully it will be in the near future with the communication we are having.

Mr. Leo Kearns

Can I just clarify that about the numbers? The Senator is correct. There are nine elected vets on the council and one elected veterinary nurse. In 2024, and Mr. McDermott referenced this earlier, the council submitted a set of proposed amendments to the legislation to the Department. As the Senator knows, that make up of the council is set out in legislation. The council cannot change it. In those suggested amendments, one of them is to reduce the size of the council. That would reduce the number of vets on the council to six and increase the number of veterinary nurses to two, which would be proportionate with the number of registrants. We strongly encourage that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Is the Veterinary Council of Ireland supportive of that?

Mr. Leo Kearns

Yes, we are.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is really interesting because we would not be aware of that from reading the documents, other than this one sentence that talks about supporting nurses as a key objective. Now that Mr. Kearns has shared that with us, we have the benefit of knowing that and that is important. From our point of view, if there is a requirement to expedite the statutory regulations or changes, we can give voice to that to the Minister, if that is what the committee decides. I thank Mr. Kearns for that.

In terms of both presentations, both groups have set out their issues and concerns, but I am none the wiser about what their key asks are. I read them three times and asked myself what can I take away from this that tells me what are the three key asks from the Veterinary Council or Veterinary Ireland. Will Mr. Glynn set out in one minute what are the three key asks that Veterinary Ireland would like this committee to take on board and advocate for?

Mr. Eoin Glynn

Having talked about the different types of practices in the country, it is important to know, as Mr. Gallagher said as well, that any nurse in any practice is considered integral to the team. They are very valuable. From Veterinary Ireland's point of view, we always promote any of our members to make sure they utilise the nurse's full capabilities in practice. The last day the nurses were here, they spoke about their concerns regarding the utilisation of nurses in practice, and we go back to the note guide from the Veterinary Council.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I am sorry to cut across Mr. Glynn. What are the key asks? We know the situation. What are Veterinary Ireland's key asks of this committee to support the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses? What are the key asks Veterinary Ireland would like from this committee?

Mr. Eoin Glynn

A huge thing is the costs associated with running a practice now.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is one.

Mr. Eoin Glynn

We have seen in human medicine that there are significant subsidies for general practices, and similar to general veterinary practices, the provision of a 24-hour service. We would love to be able to pay both veterinary assistants, as we mentioned, and veterinary nurses. We would love to be able to pay them a lot more, but unfortunately we are governed by the income we can take in from fees, and we do not see how we can increase fees.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Is there anything else that Veterinary Ireland would like to ask this committee to advocate for?

Mr. Eoin Glynn

No.

Senator Victor Boyhan

In terms of veterinary nurses, what would the Veterinary Council like this committee to further advocate for in terms of the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses?

Ms Niamh Hogan

That is a great question. We have already submitted our list of proposed legislative amendments, lots of which relate to nurses, including, as we have already discussed, the number of nurses on the committee. We would also like to set up a nurse specialist register. We would like to be able to publish the list of nurses who are on our register, as well as a variety of other asks that are within the proposed legislative amendments. They have been sitting with the Department of agriculture since 2024, and we would love to get some momentum on that.

From our end, we will continue to promote the role of the veterinary nurse. As part of that, in our workforce review, one of the recommendations was that we would go to the Department of agriculture to look for financial support, particularly for rural and more vulnerable areas. This is not just to protect animal welfare, but also importantly to protect food safety and biosecurity. Vets play a vital role in the whole one health initiative. We have lots of international examples in other jurisdictions where government supports have been provided to try to assist with veterinary services being available in rural locations.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the witnesses for their engagement with us. It is really positive.

I do not necessarily welcome the reductions in the veterinary council but I welcome the fact that we will now have two veterinary nurses. That is important. Any additional documentation in relation to the details that were described and the documents before the Minster may be helpful for our committee. We can then, if agreed by the committee, give that a bit more impetus and raise it with the Minister for agriculture. I thank the witnesses.

Mr. Leo Kearns

That would be appreciated.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I thank the witnesses for all being here and for their opening statements. Apologies that I was not here for the beginning of the meeting. A lot of things happened today in the last few days of the Dáil sitting, as the witnesses will understand.

I pay tribute to everybody involved in the whole veterinary industry and the work they do, from the small animals right up to farm animals. Certainly in my part of the world it is more about the farm animals we are working with. The vet is somebody in every farm in the country whose phone number is one of the first farmers have on their list when there is anything wrong. It may only be for advice but their local vet is absolutely central to their whole economic well-being, as well as everything else.

We had the veterinary nurses in at a previous meeting. I acknowledge in the opening statements the witnesses recognise the issue around retention, recruitment and trying to ensure that part of the practice is kept there and is made viable. So many people who qualify as veterinary nurses go to college, work in the area for a couple of years and then move off to something else. We need to find a way of keeping that skill set retained. Our objective here in the committee is to try to raise that issue and bring it to a platform where we can benefit everybody. The main benefactor in all of this will be animal health. That is really what we have to look to as well.

In that context I will mention a couple of things. I notes the witnesses mentioned a number of reports that were done at different times. I know there were recommendations in many of those reports. I would like to get a little analysis as to those reports. There was a report in 2019; it may have been the workforce report. How have those recommendations been implemented? How well is the council on in respect of those?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The workforce review was published in 2025. We have made significant progress on a number of objectives within our list of recommendations. A lot of work is ongoing but we have made significant progress. I will run the Deputy through some of the specific actions that we have taken. We are looking at the role and scope of the veterinary nurse document to expand and try to promote the role of nurses, particularly in rural and equine practices. We have updated the training standards for both vet and vet nurse education to ensure interprofessional collaboration is on the syllabus so that our graduates are prepared to work together. We are also currently reviewing our website to see what better ways we can have access to different resources there, ensure it flows well and that people can find the right information. Next month we are hoping to put out a stakeholder review on our out-of-hours service to gather evidence, essentially, on who is providing that service and how well that service is being delivered. We have a number of objectives under our work-life balance recommendation, some of which sit with us as a regulator and more of which will sit with different representative bodies. We are looking at promoting mental health resources. We are trying to get a longitudinal study looking at burn-out in vets and vet nurses. This follows on from a report we did in 2021 showing significant anxiety levels across both professions. We are developing an EDI policy. We are looking at trying to recognise mid-tier qualifications. I spoke already about having a nurse-specialist register, but these would be able to recognise certificate level qualifications. This, again, is a kind of middle ground. We also recommended mentoring programmes. We want to see an increase in leadership training availability and we would like to set up a kind of a forum for representative bodies, although some of those do not sit within our remit.

Outside of the workforce report specifically, we have had a number of initiatives within the council to promote the vet nurse. We have made vet nurses mandatory in hospital-level classifications and it is a recommendation in clinic level within the practice accreditation scheme. We have, as Ms Murray said, external nurse members on most of our committees. Any working groups we set up from time to time contain nurse members and both of our authorised officer panels now have nursing members too. We will continue our nursing accreditation visits. Of course, the main thing is that if we could get our legislative amendments we would be able to progress a lot of our objectives.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I respect that. Certainly, those proposed amendments to legislation are something as a committee we would be committed to in trying to ensure we can put some level of pressure on the Minister and the Department to move that forward and make that happen. A number of more specific issues were raised here the last day. Some of them were around complaints. There is always a difficulty in any workplace when an employee has an issue or whatever. There was certainly a sense I got from the conversation that a lot of veterinary nurses would find it difficult to call out practices they found were not appropriate and were unsure whether they would be punished for it. Under those circumstances, what systems has the council in place to ensure there is a safe and confidential means by which veterinary nurses can call out practices like that?

Mr. Leo Kearns

I will address that.

Mr. Allen Dunne

Or will I?

Deputy Martin Kenny

Both witnesses can.

Mr. Allen Dunne

That is a difficult one. From my experience of practice, you are in a small team one-on-one with a veterinary nurse or a couple of nurses. It is very difficult for anybody to call out unsafe practices in that sort of clinical setting. However, things would probably be pretty bad if a nurse were to go to the VCI with a complaint on somebody she is working cheek by jowl with day in, day out. As practitioners we are bound by current legislation - the whistle-blower Act, I think - and protected disclosures can be made anonymously.

Deputy Martin Kenny

It is a very difficult thing for a person as an employee to go down that route. Mr. Dunne would accept that.

Mr. Allen Dunne

I appreciate that. It is very difficult for an employee in a small setting to go to the veterinary council and complain against his or her employer. Obviously, for employee matters there is the WRC and things like that for the nuts and bolts of being employed, such as holidays, sick leave and pay.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We are talking about it in the context of animal health. In human health there are mechanisms within which people - whistle-blower is not the right word - can express concerns which can be done confidentially. If there is not a place for that to happen, something needs to be done to find that space.

Mr. Allen Dunne

That would be a good idea. From personal experience, my wife works for a GP. She is GP practice nurse and I do not know how she could complain about her boss in a similar situation as one of my nurses complaining about me. It would be different if you were in a large hospital setting. That would be my comment on it.

Mr. Leo Kearns

The first thing to say is that this is common across all professional regulators and settings. People do find it very difficult, even in large hospitals, to complain against a colleague or someone who is working in that hospital. The data would show that most complaints, for instance, in human medicine or healthcare, are made by members of the public or by other regulators. It is a problem when people are working with others to then make a complaint. The council does accept anonymous complaints. Somebody can make an anonymous complaint and the council will respect that. All complaints that are made anonymously are considered by the council and it then decides what regulatory action may be appropriate to take. It is very difficult in some cases to gather the evidence that might be required because that would reveal the source. That is a challenge. As my colleague Mr. Dunne mentioned, the Protected Disclosures Act is there but as the Deputy said himself it is a complex process as well. There is no simple answer to it. We want to be as encouraging as possible with people to say-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

A similar situation to that, which was referred to the last day, is in some practices there may be people fulfilling the role of a veterinary nurse without actually being qualified.

The veterinary nurses obviously feel aggrieved that their roles are being undermined in that context. That is another matter that needs to be addressed in some way. I would like to hear the witnesses' response to that. It was raised the last day. I am not saying that any of these things are common practice-----

Mr. Leo Kearns

I know.

Deputy Martin Kenny

-----but if there is any of it happening, it needs to be addressed.

Mr. Leo Kearns

The council would regard it as a very serious issue if somebody were unlawfully using the title "veterinary nurse" when he or she is not qualified. We can only act on evidence, but once that is reported to us, and we would encourage reporting of it, the council will act. It depends on the setting, but in the first instance there would either be an investigation or a cease-and-desist letter would issue, which, in most cases, would resolve the issue. In 2025, there were three investigations carried out in relation to this. It is not a widespread problem, but investigations were carried out. Two were not proven and for the other, there was not sufficient evidence to support prosecution. However, where evidence is sufficient to support prosecution, the council will pursue it if somebody persists and does not regularise the situation.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Having this conversation at the committee will help to raise awareness-----

Mr. Leo Kearns

Of course.

Deputy Martin Kenny

-----around the issue. The council could do something to ensure that the public, who use veterinary practices, and those who work in veterinary practices are aware of the systems that may be in place. If they see something which they feel is malpractice or poor practice, there should be some way or mechanism for them. I am not one of these people who believes in having a society where we report everyone. However, there must be awareness to ensure there is fair play for everybody around the systems we can put in place.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I am sorry for not being here at the start of the meeting. We had plenty of interesting conversations on this subject the last day. Mr. Gallagher said that nurses could be better trained and given extra training in scanning. Would they be trained on site or would they go back to college to train? Would they get extra credits? How would that work?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

For context, I have been a qualified veterinary nurse for 16 years. I first started in Kilkenny. When I started out, we did stuff but did not do as much as we could do now. If you want to become a nurse, you would have to go to college for a certain period, depending on the college you go to. You would learn your skills and get your training before going out to practice. A lot of our clinics have mentorship programmes that would help. Going forward and going on, we are looking at the scope of the role of the veterinary nurse and how we can improve it for retention purposes. The training would be within the practice for those items. A veterinary nurse also has to get a certain amount of veterinary points each year to stay on the register each year.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

If you were being trained on site, is there-----

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Is the Deputy asking if you are thrown in at the deep end?

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Yes. You would stay for extra time. Is there anything like that involved in any of it?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Not necessarily for that, unless you were doing a certificate and there was a cost. The company would normally pay for it and if you left within that term, you may have to pay back the cost of the certificate.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Is there any more scope for anything else to be added to the list?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

As I mentioned, we have five veterinary nurses on the nursing committee and we are always trying to improve what the veterinary nurses can do and to utilise them. Part of the retention piece is that our nurses are not being utilised to their full advantage. There is going to be more stuff. However, we are tied in what we can do. It would have to go through a process.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

There is plenty of talk among veterinary nurses that they can do more but just need to get recognised for doing more.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

That is absolutely the case. We would look at other countries and see what they are doing. We benchmark by seeing what they are doing and see if we can bring it into Ireland. That will keep veterinary nurses here.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

The workforce issue is about retention. We need to keep veterinary nurses engaged. They know they can do more. Generally, people who work with animals love their jobs and that is why they stay there. All of us farmers want to stay farming but must ask whether it pays. That is the thing. You have to find out how to do that and how to retain the workforce.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

May I add something there?

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Yes, go on.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

If people go and do an extra certificate in something, perhaps a dental certificate for nurses or a certificate in emergency and critical care, they would more than likely earn more on the back of it because they have extra skills. That would free up the veterinarians to do other duties.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

That is very good. Ms Hogan talked about Government funding. What does that look like?

Ms Niamh Hogan

I can give some international examples. It would not be for us to tell the Oireachtas how-----

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

It would be nice to see what it would look like. We can understand when we are dealing with public health that it is in everybody's interests that the Government funds as much as it possibly can for the good of all of our health. For animals, we might say that we will look at small animals. You choose to have a dog or not. I do not understand how public funding would go into that. That same would apply to the equine sector. If we look at, say, cattle, sheep and all of that, then we say that it is for the public good because it is our food that we are eating. It is what we are. It is the health of our nation.

Ms Niamh Hogan

Yes.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I can understand on that end of it where you would put the funding. It is more on the farming end that I have an interest.

Ms Niamh Hogan

Exactly that. We identified in our workforce report that the areas of biggest vulnerability are rural areas. Within the workforce review, we have figures that show, between 2016 and 2022, a 21% decline in the availability of farm animal services. In that same period, companion animal services increased by 18%. We know that there is an issue, particularly around the availability of rural farm and equine services. We agree that funding should be targeted more towards those vulnerable areas.

I can give examples, for context, of what is going on internationally because this is not an issued faced only by Ireland. In Sweden, state vets provide emergency care to all species of animal. France has funded internships to try to encourage people to work in rural areas. The UK has the highlands and islands scheme, which funds visits to remote areas. In the USA, there is federal funding available to provide loan forgiveness for vets who work in rural areas. There are international examples. We do not need to reinvent the wheel here. Like I say, the exact formation of how these funds are appropriated would not be for the council to decide.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Does Mr. Murphy want to say anything?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

I thank the Deputy. On the specific issue of out-of-hours services in remote rural areas, we would see this as a wider issue. It should be a matter of raising all boats. We have a brilliant veterinary service and at present, everyone has access to a vet in their local community. We want to keep it that way. However, we need some additional funding to meet the cost of the provision of a 24-hour emergency service. It is the most expensive part of a practice. There is no funding. GPs, through the HSE, get approximately €150 million in annual funding to support the out-of-hours service. We certainly think there could be funding there.

We acknowledge the work of the Department of agriculture. It recently launched a biosecurity targeted advisory service on animal health, TASAH, to cover various diseases on farms. It will benefit all mixed practices. The Department is funding 26,000 of these TASAHs, whether on TB, biosecurity, bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, or parasite control. There are approximately 110,000 livestock farmers in Ireland so funding for 26,000 TASAHs will not meet the demand that is there for the service. This is consistent with EU animal health law, which talks about having vets deal with biosecurity issues on farms. It comes under the principle that prevention is better than waiting for the disease to happen. That is an example of an area where there could be greater funding. The out-of-hours service is very expensive in all practices.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I know all about that. It is expensive for us, too. We have horses as well. We have Clinic na gCapall close to us and there is a great service there.

However, you do pay for the service you get. There are enough vets in the out-of-hours service to ensure somebody is on call. As I was saying, it is a question of how to tie that in with our food. That is where it will work. I do not see that end of it for smaller animals. There is less need there for out-of-hours work as there is when cows are calving in springtime, vets are performing C-sections at 3 a.m. and so on.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

We believe there is still a public good in having a 24-hour emergency service available for all animals, that is, not just farm animals, but also companion animals, which are increasingly part of our households. Under the One Health concept, we are treating diseases in these companion animals with the same medicines we use for humans. There is a public good in having an emergency veterinary service available.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Should it be publicly funded, though?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Some support should be provided.

Mr. Allen Dunne

It is worth noting that we are in the embryonic stages of discussions with the Department on a scheme of syndromic surveillance. This means that veterinary practices would notify the Department of certain diseases occurring in our practices and areas so that the Department could get a handle on problems more quickly. It could be a bluetongue outbreak in Wexford or something like that. That all requires funding. It is currently stalled because of funding issues.

The One Health issue that Mr. Murphy mentioned is very important. The veterinary profession is working very hard at all levels to decrease its usage of antibiotics. We are gaining in that area. We have done a lot of work on it. In a similar way, with regard to last year's parasitology scheme, the targeted advisory service on animal health, TASAH, and so on, we should have much more involvement in the prescribing of anthelmintics and the like. All of these drugs that we use are used in human medicine. It is everything. If an antibiotic does not work for the animal I am treating, it is not going to work for you when your doctor prescribes it.

Deputy William Aird took the Chair.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

My next question is on a different issue, but while I have the witnesses here, are wormers no longer given as freely since they were made prescription-only?

Mr. Allen Dunne

I do not want to comment on that at the moment. The parasitology TASAH scheme is brilliant. We got in faecal samples and tested them. We gave a lot of advice to farmers not to dose the animals. As a profession, we have become a lot more engaged in the worming issue. A lot of that has to do with the help we have got from Government. We would love that to continue because we are doing a really good job on it.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

Some people just needed to be educated on the issue. That is really all it was.

Mr. Allen Dunne

I see a lot of samples coming into my own practice and, in many cases, the drugs are not needed, so why use them?

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

It was just something you did. It was like brushing your teeth in the morning. You just did it but there was no need.

Mr. Allen Dunne

In a way, that was the advice vets were giving until we looked at the issue. That work has been good and should be continued.

Mr. Eoin Glynn

As the Deputy said, it is about education. Last year's parasite scheme - the TASAH scheme - changed people's mindset. A lot of people used to come in to tell us they wanted to dose their cattle or to do one thing or another. Now, they just-----

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

It was done in spring or summer.

Mr. Eoin Glynn

Yes. Now, they just arrive with a faecal sample. Following last year's scheme, they are aware that we can give them a lot of data very quickly. In many cases, they are delighted when you tell them they do not have to buy these medicines and spend all day dosing all of their cattle. It has definitely helped the whole situation.

Ms Emily Murray

On that issue, nurses could play a key role in analysing those faecal samples, providing that education to farmers and other stakeholders, creating those parasite control plans with the vet and following up on them during visits. The role of nurses in farm practice has come up. That is an area in which a nurse could really take a strong role.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I have just a few questions I want to ask. On veterinary nurses, the witnesses have argued that the low pay is linked to the lack of State support. What responsibility do veterinary practice owners have for improving the pay and conditions of veterinary nurses?

Mr. Allen Dunne

Increasing the profitability of veterinary practice would be the tide that lifts all boats.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Give me more.

Mr. Allen Dunne

As Mr. Murphy alluded to, the workplace review suggests that vets, both veterinary assistants and principals, are not overpaid in the greater scheme of professional wages. Perhaps Mr. Murphy would like to comment.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is all right, Mr. Murphy. I pay vets all right, so I will say nothing.

Mr. Murphy stated that veterinary practices had employed more staff at their own expense, that is, out of the owners' own income. Will he provide evidence that this has translated into better pay or career opportunities for veterinary nurses?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

The IVNA survey stated that the average salary was €36,800. Obviously, there is variation within that. We recognise that it is not a great wage in an Irish context. We are a very high-cost economy, so there are cost-of-living pressures. It is similar for veterinary assistants. We want to raise all boats but, as Mr. Dunne and Mr. Glynn will acknowledge, it is a question of how much revenue you can get from the farmers in fees.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If veterinary nurses are utilised in practice, what specific changes is Veterinary Ireland asking its members to make to better use nurses' skills and improve job satisfaction?

Mr. Eoin Glynn

I can take that. As a representative body, we do not have jurisdiction to tell practices what to do or what they can do. What we can do is to highlight to our members the concerns the IVNA have raised. The biggest thing is something I was not aware of seven or eight years ago, that is, the various different capabilities of veterinary nurses in practice. We can share that data in accordance with VCI guidelines on the scope of practice of veterinary nurses. We can definitely share that with our members. We can provide continuing veterinary education for our members on how to best utilise veterinary nurses in practice. At the end of the day, it is about optimising the service we are giving to our customers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Veterinary Ireland has called for greater State support. What commitments would Veterinary Ireland make in return to ensure any public funding directly improves veterinary nurse recruitment, retention and pay?

Mr. Allen Dunne

That is very difficult to commit to, is it not?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am just asking for the witnesses' opinion.

Mr. Allen Dunne

On what I imagine we would do with increased funding, we chatted about parasitology and the scope for veterinary nurses to carry out a lot of that testing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are talking about State support. That is what I said at the beginning. If there was State-----

Mr. Allen Dunne

We were talking about TASAH, which is State funded. Veterinary nurses have a role in testing samples and looking at results. Again, it is a question of the tide that lifts all boats. At the end of the day, the veterinary nurse is an employee of the veterinary practice. We cannot tell a practice what it can or cannot pay a veterinary nurse. We would hope that, in our practices, the increased work and the better quality of work that our veterinary nurses are carrying out for us is being reflected in their pay cheques. In my opinion, they are an invaluable part of our practices.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Veterinary Ireland has acknowledged concerns about poor work-life balance, career progression and retention. What actions has the organisation taken with its members over the past five years to address these issues? What measurable results have been achieved?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

One thing we did achieve was the TASAH programme. That was funded under the rural development programme over the last five years. For one year, there was no funding. This year, for the first time, the Department of agriculture has taken it over. Separately, we have got a small bit of capital support for veterinary practices in respect of the TB testing scheme. That goes towards equipment and computers. That was limited but every little bit helps the practices. These are just examples of some of the areas we have been involved in.

This committee was exercised about the issue of medicines for a number of years. We were concerned that, if an income stream was taken away from veterinary practitioners, it would bring all boats down. I refer to the ability of vets to pay their staff, including veterinary nurses and veterinary practitioners.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is fair enough. I thank Mr. Murphy for that.

This is for the Veterinary Council of Ireland. If the recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses had been identified as a priority since the 2025 workforce report, what measurable improvements have resulted from the Veterinary Council's actions today?

Ms Niamh Hogan

I am happy to take that one. Since the report was published last year, we have started a number of actions. We are currently reviewing the role and scope of the veterinary nurse document. We have updated our training standards for both veterinary nursing students and also veterinary medicine students to include interprofessional collaboration. Our website is under review so that access to information, particularly, as has been pointed out, around how complaints are made, etc., is more accessible to both professions. We have an out-of-hours stakeholder consultation planned to go live next month to gather information on how that service is provided by vets to the public. We have a number of actions under the work-life balance recommendation that are in train at the moment. We are looking at trying to do a longitudinal study looking at burnout in both professions. We are developing an equality, diversion and inclusion, EDI, policy. We are continuing to survey leavers of the register to see why they are leaving. We are looking at recognising mid-tier qualifications. We have suggested that mentoring programmes be set up, increased leadership training be made available and a forum for veterinary representative bodies be established. Outside of the workforce review recommendations specifically, we have a number of actions around nurses being compulsory in hospitals and recommended in clinics. We have as part of our amendments a number of issues that need legislative change to move forward on that are particularly related to nurses. We continue to accredit veterinary nursing colleges of education.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What specific actions has the Veterinary Council of Ireland taken within its remit to address the cause of veterinary nurses leaving the profession? We were talking about the working conditions and so forth at a previous meeting. What recommendations has it made?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The regulator would have no role in setting the terms and conditions of employment in private practices.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The legislative amendments were submitted to the Department in 2024. Which of these amendments does Ms Hogan believe would have the greatest impact on recruitment and retention and why have they not yet been progressed?

Ms Niamh Hogan

We are seeking a number of legislative amendments. Ones that specifically relate to nurses, as Mr. Gallagher was talking about earlier, include increasing the nursing membership of the proportionality of nurses available to the council. We already have nurses as external members on a lot of our committees who feed into a lot of the decision-making but, certainly, having increased representation on the board of the council would be of huge benefit to the standing of nurses.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

How does Ms Hogan measure whether expanding educational capacity is translating into better retention rather than simply training more graduates who leave the profession?

Mr. Leo Kearns

The issue of the number of undergraduate places for nurses is a matter for the Department of higher education and the Higher Education Authority, HEA. They fund the places within the nursing schools and in the veterinary school. Our role is to accredit these programmes so they are fit for purpose and people can be registered at the end of them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is work at the end of it then.

Mr. Leo Kearns

It is not within our remit to say how many nurses should be educated. That should be a workforce strategy within Government and across government.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We were told at a previous meeting that there is a high percentage of dropouts after having gone through the course because of the employment conditions. I am just making the point here.

Mr. Leo Kearns

Yes, just-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have to get a balance. Even though it might not be somebody's remit, somebody has to stand up and say hold on a minute; we are training 20 people and ten have fallen out after the first year or whatever. We have to look at the whole thing. That is all I am asking. That is why I am putting the question to the witnesses.

Ms Niamh Hogan

I can help to give some sort of a context.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ms Hogan might shed some light on it.

Ms Niamh Hogan

The compulsory nurse in a registered veterinary hospital setting started for existing hospitals this year. We had a lead-up period from 2024 to 2026 and in that space of time, we have had seven registered veterinary hospitals, RVHs, reclassify into the clinic category that have explicitly told us they have failed to recruit a veterinary nurse. As far as we can tell, it is not that there is a failure in terms of there being an oversupply of veterinary nurses. In certain parts of the country, there is definitely an issue in terms of recruiting nurses into the area. We can see this when we look at the breakdown of where nurses are employed. Of the clinics that do not have nurses, three quarters of them are smaller clinics with less than three vets and half of them are in rural locations. Those types of practice profiles will struggle to recruit nurses, so I do not think from our for data that there is an oversupply issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This is my final question. The workforce report identifies retention as a major challenge. What is the single biggest barrier in retaining veterinary nurses in Ireland and what recommendations would the witnesses make to the Government to address them?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The key challenges that were identified in the workforce review include poor work-life balance, mental and physical health issues, terms and conditions to include remuneration, career progression, nurse utilisation issues and poor workplace culture, in that order. Those were the issues that were identified as part of the workforce review and then the recommendations flowed from that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Does Ms Murray want to add to that?

Ms Emily Murray

One of the legislative amendments we have requested is for a specialist veterinary nurses register. That would address the concerns around underutilisation of nurses and lack of job satisfaction and progression. Currently, there is no acknowledgement of additional training or that some nurses might have a mid-level qualification, such as a postgraduate certificate, or that there are more in-depth programmes. In the United States, there is a specialist programme where a person would train in a large hospital under very specialist veterinary teams. If one of our nurses in Ireland were to have completed any of those trainings, at the moment, there is no recognition for that. It would not be the council's job to decide this, but it would presumably then feed into the pay scales and job title progression. The veterinary specialist register is something that is in our legislative amendment request.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank Ms Murray.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I will follow on from some of the conversations with the Chair. Talking about money is always a dirty business, but we have to talk about it. Veterinary Ireland mentioned that the average salary for a veterinary assistant in Ireland is just €50,300 per annum versus a registered veterinary nurse at €36,800. They are all averages and, of course, there is a little bit of up and down on both of those. Can the witnesses explain, just for the committee to have on the record, the difference between the veterinary assistant and the qualified veterinary nurse? What is the level of qualification difference?

Ms Emily Murray

The veterinary assistant title is maybe creating some confusion. Where "veterinary assistant" is being used here, it means a fully qualified vet but a more junior member rather than a principal.

Deputy Martin Kenny

A junior vet.

Ms Emily Murray

They are a vet rather than, say, an animal care assistant, which would not be a registered profession.

Deputy Martin Kenny

There is a little bit confusion with the way it is spelt out there, that is all.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Yes, absolutely. It is essentially a fully qualified vet working as an employee in a veterinary practice versus being a partner or-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

Probably starting off.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Not necessarily because in reality, in a veterinary practice, there would probably be two assistants to one principal or partner or at least two assistants. Some people may always be an assistant but they may be earning more than €50,000. They may never decide to buy in and become partner or principal of their own practice. That is an average for the assistants. The average for the principal or partners from that survey was €96,000.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Those salaries are base salaries. That is not including overtime or anything like that.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

There is very little overtime.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Yes, but does Mr. Murphy know what I mean?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

That is the income. It is the total.

Deputy Martin Kenny

That is the total annual income on average for each.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Obviously, one of the issues is around the salary. It is naturally going to be an issue and it is going to put pressure on people.

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Martin Kenny

One of the reasons people will not stay in a profession is because if the salary is not good enough and they can see other opportunities that are better, they are going to move to them. Does Mr. Gallagher want to come in there?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

I would just like to add something on this point of what a veterinary nurse who goes to college would normally earn. I think there was maybe a misunderstanding at the last meeting. We spoke about the average salary, which is €36,800, but our new graduate nurses are coming out of college at around €30,000.

It is very hard for us to keep them. Unfortunately, the VCI cannot set salary bands. If we want to retain those nurses, we obviously need to do something, but it is outside the VCI's remit.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I appreciate and understand that. One of the other things that comes into it is the possibility of progression, which was mentioned the last day and, in fairness, has been referred to today as well. In the public health system, a nurse can become an advanced nurse practitioner, advancement can happen and there are possibilities there. I would like to get clarity on that.

We all know it is difficult to become a vet. I know many people, including youngsters who went to school with my own youngsters, who wanted to become vets but could not because it was very hard to get into the course. The points have to be very high and there are a very limited number of spaces. Some of them go abroad to Hungary and elsewhere and pay to qualify there. It is very expensive on a family to do that. Often, people do not come back when they do that because they have to make the money somewhere else. That is fine and legitimate, but many people might be going down the route of doing the veterinary nurse course because the opportunity is not there for them to do veterinary science. Is there a possibility of creating progression that would bring the person right up the scale so they could become a vet?

Ms Emily Murray

I am not sure that that is necessarily the case. The majority of nurses would go into the veterinary nursing profession as a distinct thing as opposed to it being a case of them not obtaining a route into veterinary medicine. Progression in terms of additional qualifications within the nursing register is something we have requested and would support. Veterinary nursing, similar to human nursing, would be a distinct role but the progression is definitely important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is Deputy Kenny happy enough with that?

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

I might answer as well. We would certainly like to see that progression being available, but it is down to the income that is available to the practice. The problem at the moment, which is the same for veterinary nurses and veterinary assistants, is that the progression is out of the profession and into higher paying roles, be they in industry, sales, education and training for vets or vet nurses, or in the Department with full-time positions in the State veterinary services. The salaries are far more attractive there, unfortunately. It is a form of progression but we would like to have a situation where, if it is their wish, the nurse would be able to stay in veterinary nursing and veterinary practice beyond ten years. It comes back to resources. It is similar for the veterinary assistants. If the person wants to move into another industry, that is fine as well. It is a form of progression, but we would like to think that there would be sufficient resources available so that people would have a choice.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Are veterinary practices employing enough nurses? Is that one of the issues or is it that they are not available? It was mentioned that a number of veterinary hospitals were not able to recruit-----

Mr. Allen Dunne

There is availability. It is not a crisis of not having enough veterinary nurses. Rather, the problem is retaining them. I imagine it is harder to have career progression per se in a smaller practice where there are one or two nurses and there is no scope to move into a managerial role. I do not know whether a lot of these veterinary nurses work for large corporate organisations that may have a structure where the nurse will climb the managerial ladder. I am not 100% sure. At Veterinary Ireland, we are not comfortable with the idea of the entire veterinary industry being taken over by incorporated entities. I do not think that is-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

May I just ask about that, please? I was brought up with the ordinary one-man practice, perhaps with his family or his wife taking all the calls, in fairness to them. I know that was the same with doctors as well, but things have moved on. I have two questions on the situation we see now. Will it encourage more people into veterinary nursing or will it have a severe effect on them if we move in the direction that we are going? If a multi-corporate takes over, it might bisect the company. This happened in an area not too far from me where the farmers got a letter saying that the practice was no longer doing large animals. Surely there has to be a situation whereby animal welfare comes into it. We know exactly how many cattle we have in this country, we know the ages and we know the types. We do the same in the sheep sector. It is the same in the horse sector, which is hugely reliant on vets as well. Surely there has to be a ratio for the number of vets needed for animal welfare. That is what we are talking about at the end of the day. The use of veterinary surgeons is for the greater good of animal welfare. My experience only goes so far, after which I ring for professional advice and for the professionals to come out and look at the problem. Can I have the witnesses' views on that, please?

Mr. Allen Dunne

Ireland is a little bit unique, in that we have a large number of vets who practise mixed veterinary practice and treat large, small and equines. In many other countries, vets have gone down through a more specialist role. In those countries, including in the UK, our nearest neighbour, it is very difficult to get a vet who will treat large animals and small animals. The problem we are facing, and the committee will see it with corporatisation, is that the corporates may cherry-pick. They exist for one reason only, which is to make money. They will cherry-pick the most profitable areas of veterinary medicine and that is what they will work around. They are not going to be obliged to have a vet available at 2 a.m. to go calve a cow. As Ms Hogan said, the most vulnerable practices in the country are the smaller rural practices that currently provide an on-call service to everything with four legs when a call comes in the middle of the night. Corporates may not be there unless it is sustainable.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Exactly. That is the point I am making. We need to make allowance for that. Will Deputy Kenny propose that Senator Paraic Brady take the Chair while we have a vote in the Dáil? Either that or we can suspend.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I propose that Senator Brady take the Chair.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have to go to a vote. Before we come back, I would love the witnesses to reflect on the matter raised so that we could discuss further what they think should happen going forward. It is important that the witnesses say that to us. That is the one question I would like answered. We can put our views across, but it is the professional people who are dealing with this who are the ones who can tell us. There is nothing going to be as bad - I hope I do not ever see it - as ringing your vet at night because there needs to be a caesarean or whatever done but you do not get an answer or just get the answering machine. All hell will then break loose as regards animal welfare, so we want to make sure we do not have that situation.

Senator Paraic Brady took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Paraic Brady)

I thank our witnesses for coming in. We had the veterinary nurses in here a number of weeks back to discuss retention in their services. The witnesses have probably addressed this. I would like the witnesses' comments on TB testing, the relevant qualifications to read TB tests and the use of a veterinary nurse in a practice. Is there a way that nurses can do a lot more than they are being asked currently? How do we change that concept?

Mr. Allen Dunne

We chatted with Deputy Fitzmaurice on a point similar to that. He made it last month when the committee met the nurses. I have talked quite a bit about it and am probably going to repeat myself. For argument's sake, let us say that TB testing becomes the remit of veterinary nurses.

I work in a small rural practice. I am the principal and I employ two other vets, two veterinary nurses and some lay staff. If I had a veterinary nurse doing the TB testing, which sounds like a good idea, that might be fine, but then I would have to look at my veterinary couple. I probably would not have enough work for three vets so I would have to get rid of one of them. Suddenly, I would be down to a one-in-three rota. I have to bear in mind I am obliged to provide a 24-7 on-call service. If I am down to two vets, my assistant and I will each be asked to do every second weekend on call, for argument's sake. My assistant will then come to me and say that when I took him on there were three vets, we are now down to two, he is now on call every second weekend and so he has decided to leave because he does not like that lifestyle. At that stage, I would have to look at my farm animal work and decide if I am willing to continue doing it. I might decide that it is probably not worth my while doing it. My farm animal clients would be left without veterinary cover. I might continue doing companion animal and I might or might not do equine. I might go into an arrangement with a practice 30 miles away to help me with my on-call duties. My small animal clients would probably have to drive 30 miles on the weekends I am not on call.

The problem with rural veterinary practice, in particular farm animal practice, is that the work comes in peaks and troughs. We are extremely busy with clinical work, with calls for a number of months of the year. After that, it peters out. We are not busy enough to justify having a large number of vets on call. They need to be doing other work. TB testing, thankfully, helps to meet some of those troughs. We have developed a mixed practice to smooth out the peaks and troughs in work. If we were to give veterinary nurses the remit to engage in a large proportion of farm animal work, we would end up with fewer rural vets doing farm work.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan resumed the Chair.

Senator Paraic Brady

As Mr. Dunne said, there are peaks and troughs. Mr. Dunne has three vets in his practice-----

Mr. Allen Dunne

Yes.

Senator Paraic Brady

-----and one veterinary nurse.

Mr. Allen Dunne

Two veterinary nurses, one full time and one part time.

Senator Paraic Brady

Mr. Dunne's veterinary nurse would never be on call.

Mr. Allen Dunne

No, she does not do on call. We do not run that.

Senator Paraic Brady

At night-time, if Mr. Dunne, who has a small practice, is called in to do an operation, his veterinary nurse is not on call.

Mr. Allen Dunne

No, although I am not saying that if I rang her, she would not answer the phone and come in out of the goodness of her heart.

Ms Emily Murray

In some practices, the veterinary nurse would be on call.

Senator Paraic Brady

In some practices. I have a farming background. I understand the value of a vet when it comes to an operation, at night-time or at any time. I also keep horses and I understand the workload that comes with horses. We keep a collie dog at the house that had to have an operation last week. In my area, it is very unusual to get a vet who does all three. A vet will be involved in small animals, equine and small animals, or larger animals only, that is, cattle, horses and sheep. I do not think we have a vet who does small, large, cattle and testing. If there is one, I am not aware of who it is.

It is probably harsh to say this but I feel veterinary nurses are undervalued in vet practices. They could do a lot more when it comes to smaller animals in the practice, even, let us say, operations, tidying up and management. The vet has to have all the qualifications. Is that not really and truly the way to go?

Mr. Allen Dunne

That is probably more a question for the Veterinary Council. In our practice the vets would carry out what they are legally obliged to do as regards what is an act of veterinary surgery and the nurses would do exactly what is in their scope of practice.

Senator Paraic Brady

What are veterinary nurses obliged to carry out or what is their daily routine?

Mr. Allen Dunne

To give an example, if a dog gets knocked down by a car, it will be assessed by a vet initially. A veterinary nurse will also triage it. She may insert an IV cannula and take blood from the animal. Under veterinary direction, she may give fluids and administer medications to the animal. If the dog needs to be X-rayed, she may be qualified to carry out the X-rays. If she does that, the X-rays will be interpreted by the vet. The veterinary nurse does a lot of technical work in that case.

Senator Paraic Brady

All of it is overseen by the vet.

Mr. Allen Dunne

Yes.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Sorry, can I come in here?

Senator Paraic Brady

Yes, go ahead.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

If the dog has to go for a surgical procedure, the veterinary nurse will monitor the anaesthetic from start to finish. We are fully trained to deal with multi-parameter machines. We will recover the patient as well. We do so much. The vet gets to concentrate on what they need to do, whether that is inside the abdomen or whether it involves stitching or anything like that. The veterinary nurses have a vital role in that. It is an issue of animal welfare as well if there is not a veterinary nurse monitoring those procedures.

Mr. Allen Dunne

If someone is knocked down by a car and has to have a pin or plate inserted in their leg, the surgeon will be in theatre operating on that person and a qualified anaesthetist will be there keeping the person asleep. Our veterinary nurses basically do that.

Mr. Eoin Glynn

It is important to remember the nature of veterinary in this country. As the Senator said, there may not be a single practice where he lives that covers companion animal, farm animal and equine. To go back to what Mr. Dunne said earlier, that will depend on the location. I am in a small practice with two other vets. To minimise the peaks and troughs, we will generally be busy with large animals in spring. After that, we will be busy with some equine reproduction work into the mid-summer. After that, the majority of our work is companion animal, due to the seasonality of the work.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

I do companion animal work. My uncle has a farm in Tipperary and nurses there can get stool samples, administer vaccines and take bloods. They can go out and assist the vet with a C-section, which means it is more efficient for the vet as well. We spoke about the cost involved in that. The Veterinary Council is looking at the scope of the veterinary nurse with a view to keep nurses in practice and enable them to do a lot more, so that they will be happier in their role as well.

Senator Paraic Brady

Do not get me wrong; I see the value of veterinary nurses. I understand that they are very much wanted in any practice. I believe they can do much more with the qualifications they have. Maybe we should look at whether we can progress that.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Yes, absolutely. The scope of the veterinary nurse really has to be shared with Veterinary Ireland as well and that needs to be sent out to every member. We are also putting it on our website, which is being updated at the moment, so it will be there. We want the nurses to be utilised and to do the best job they can. We want to free up vets to do more, which would mean nurses would be happier in their role and we can retain them.

Senator Paraic Brady

They will be retained. That is the point. We need to retain them and the only way we will do so is if we give them that responsibility.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

The other thing is to go one step further. If a nurse has a specific interest in emergency critical care or feline nursing, there are certificates that they can obtain. Obviously, that would have financial implications for the practice the nurse is working in. It would, however, be beneficial for the veterinary clinic at the other end because it could then offer another service to its clients.

Senator Paraic Brady

We have a vaccination programme, as everybody knows, in the Department of agriculture. When badgers are caught they have to be vaccinated and a vet is on call to do that.

There is another way where a nurse can administer a vaccine-----

Mr. Allen Dunne

We were talking-----

Senator Paraic Brady

-----rather than bringing in a veterinarian to do so. That is just one aspect of it where I think-----

Mr. Allen Dunne

Those administering the TB vaccine are Department employees.

Senator Paraic Brady

I am just making that point in the context of vaccines.

Mr. Allen Dunne

I wish to comment on the Veterinary Council of Ireland and the mandatory requirement for a nurse to be employed in registered veterinary hospitals. There is some scope for education of the public about the differences between veterinary practices. Certainly, down the country, the public are not aware whether a veterinary facility is a veterinary practice, clinic or hospital. They are not aware of the differences between such facilities. Certainly, an amount of public education could be done by ourselves at Veterinary Ireland or the Veterinary Council of Ireland to explain why a facility is a hospital and the neighbouring one a clinic, while another is just a veterinary practice.

Senator Paraic Brady

Is a practice that has kennels and holds animals overnight classified as a hospital, which is the same as-----

Ms Emily Murray

It could be a clinic as well. A facility that sees animals on its premises has to be either a clinic or a hospital.

Ms Niamh Hogan

That is correct. The classifications in our premises accreditation scheme include registered veterinary offices, where animals are seen remotely, that is, away from the clinic; registered veterinary clinics, where animals are seen on site; registered veterinary hospitals; registered veterinary facilities; and registered veterinary ambulatory units. Within each classification, there are mandatory requirements to fulfil, which are different depending on the classification in question. For example, it is mandatory for a registered veterinary hospital to have a registered veterinary nurse on the staff, whereas that is not mandatory for clinics or offices.

Senator Paraic Brady

If a veterinarian is carrying out an operation at their premises, it is classified then as-----

Ms Niamh Hogan

A clinic or a hospital.

Senator Paraic Brady

Will Ms Hogan provide rough figures on the numbers in each classification?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The data from our 2024 workforce review report shows that there are 188 offices, 418 clinics, 145 hospitals, nine facilities and four mobile units. Offices are the most populous category but, generally, they are ambulatory services and smaller practices with fewer vets on the team.

Senator Paraic Brady

Does the Department oversee the hospitals?

Ms Niamh Hogan

Yes.

Senator Paraic Brady

How often does it carry out inspections?

Ms Niamh Hogan

Every four years. Every practice in the country will have an inspection once in a four-year period.

Senator Paraic Brady

Every hospital or every practice?

Ms Niamh Hogan

Every practice.

Senator Paraic Brady

What does that inspection entail, roughly?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The inspection focuses on the bricks and mortar facilities. There is a room requirement. There are basic requirements around X-ray, biosecurity, kennel facilities, the grounds and how the clinic is kept in terms of tidiness. There are a lot of different-----

Senator Paraic Brady

It is an audit.

Ms Niamh Hogan

Yes, it is an audit. That is it exactly.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a couple of quick questions before we wrap up. A veterinary workforce report was published last year. One of the issues raised with us by the nurses – it was referred to earlier – was a lack of confidence to report an issue if something were to arise. Did the veterinary workforce report identify that as an issue?

Ms Niamh Hogan

No. The veterinary workforce review looked at veterinary nurses and veterinarians in practice around recruitment and retention issues. Failures or a hesitancy around reporting was not identified.

An Cathaoirleach

It was not identified as an issue. What kinds of issues were identified and what actions are being taken in respect of them? What were the three main issues identified, and what actions are being taken on foot of them?

Ms Niamh Hogan

The key issues identified were poor work-life balance, mental and physical health issues and employment terms and conditions, including remuneration and flexible working hours.

An Cathaoirleach

What actions are being taken on each of those over the past year?

Ms Niamh Hogan

On the work-life balance issue, a number of action points have been developed from that recommendation. We are looking at carrying out a longitudinal study to look at burn-out across both professions. The Veterinary Council of Ireland commissioned a report in 2021 that showed high levels of anxiety across both professions, so we want to gather more information to see how that is changing over time. We are going to promote mental health resources through our website. We are also currently developing an equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, policy. We will develop a survey out of that in order to gather information within the professions. Following that, we will highlight, through our newsletter, the variety of roles available.

We are continuing to survey those leaving the register to find out why they are leaving. We are developing a module for new and returning veterinarians and nurses to help them into practice and over that gap. The veterinary education committee is investigating how we can recognise mid-tier qualifications. We also have examples from outside of the workforce review in terms of our role in promoting the role of the nurse. We have made nurses compulsory in a hospital setting. We have included interprofessional collaboration as part of the education standards for both veterinarians and nurses. We have incorporated nurses on many of our committees to ensure their voice is being fed through to council level.

An Cathaoirleach

We heard earlier how the veterinary nurse is qualified to do many things, similar to a nurse in a human practice situation. Are many veterinary nurses administering vaccinations and, in that way, freeing up the veterinarian's time? Is that happening in every single instance or every second instance or is it the exception to the rule?

Mr. Alan Gallagher

I will take this question. I work in a small animal veterinary companion practice. Normally, if the animal is seen within the practice by the veterinarian, our nurses give the second and third vaccines. We also deal with pre-dental and pre-neutering checks.

An Cathaoirleach

That is what is happening in Mr. Gallagher’s practice. Does he know if that is the widespread practice? Has the council studied that? Is it able to say whether Mr. Gallagher’s outfit is exceptional in this regard, or is this the norm? I am trying to get a look across the sector.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

I believe we are moving that way, based on discussions I have had with other veterinary nurses. Maybe Ms Hogan can elaborate a bit more.

Ms Niamh Hogan

We do not have information on the specific tasks veterinary nurses are doing at a practice level. We are aware that one of the issues with the retention of veterinary nurses is their underutilisation in practice. We know they are not being used to their full ability. We do not have that level of information on the specific duties they are and are not performing in practice, however.

An Cathaoirleach

Typically, a trainee does approximately 700 hours – it may be as much as 800 or 850 hours - as part of their traineeship with a veterinarian. At present, some 1,390 are registered as nurses. Are they all qualified veterinary nurses or does that figure include trainees?

Ms Emily Murray

They are all registered veterinary nurses. We do not have a student register. That figure refers to the number of fully qualified nurses.

An Cathaoirleach

What proportion of the nursing population are trainee nurses versus fully qualified nurses?

Ms Emily Murray

The figure of 1,390 refers to the number of fully qualified nurses. In any one year, the number of students nurses-----

Mr. Paul McDermott

There are 230 places for student nurses in the country at this stage among the five colleges that are accredited. A further two colleges are in the process of being accredited.

An Cathaoirleach

There are 230 people doing about 700 to 800 hours each on top of the 1,300 already registered.

Mr. Paul McDermott

Sorry, Cathaoirleach, there are 230 student nurse places per year.

Some courses vary from two to four years. We would have to work it out from that.

An Cathaoirleach

They could be three or four times that. They could be about 1,000.

Mr. Paul McDermott

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

About half or 40% of the population of veterinary nurses are trainees and about-----

Mr. Alan Gallagher

They cannot go on the register until they finish their degree.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, but on the ground, there are 1,390 qualified.

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Registered.

An Cathaoirleach

There is somewhere about 800 people-----

Mr. Alan Gallagher

Waiting to-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----who are not qualified, but are on the ground doing-----

Mr. Alan Gallagher

They are doing placements.

Ms Niamh Hogan

They would only be in those practices for a defined period of time. They are attending lectures for the majority of their time and then they spend 16 weeks or whatever on placement in a practice.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. They are the main questions I wished to get clarified. Are we okay, Senator Brady?

Senator Paraic Brady

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Very good. They are the key questions we wanted to get clarified. I thank the witnesses for being able to-----

Mr. Finbarr Murphy

Deputy Fitzmaurice asked me what the salary scale was for staff nurses in human medicine. I may have misspoken. The basic salary for an entry staff nurse or midwife with the HSE official pay scales starts at €38,166 and then goes up to €56,592 at point 13 of the scale. I wanted to clarify that in case I misspoke. I did not have the figures to hand at the time.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that. I thank Mr. Murphy.

On behalf of the committee and officials, I thank the witnesses for attending the committee. I ask members who are participating in the EU agricultural interparliamentary conference in Dublin Castle to remain here for a quick meeting on the administrative arrangements for the conference.

I thank the staff for their huge work over the past year. There has been so much crammed in from a series of meetings in relation to Mercosur, CAP and a whole range of issues from biosecurity, tuberculosis, blue tongue and so much more. After the summer, there is going to be more of a legislative focus with a number of pieces of legislation on the way in. I thank everybody for their co-operation and their work over the past year. Gabhaim míle buíochas libh go léir.

Sitting suspended at 5.53 p.m. and resumed at 6.37 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

As there are no further matters for discussion today, the meeting stands adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.37 p.m. sine die.

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