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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 30 Sep 2026

Potential for Business in an All-Island Macroeconomic Model: Discussion

The item on today's agenda is the potential for business in an all-Ireland macroeconomic model. I propose that we publish the opening statements provided by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and IBEC on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am delighted to welcome the following witnesses to today's meeting. From the ESRI, Dr. Adele Bergin, associate research professor and Professor Martina Lawless, director; and from IBEC, Mr. Fergal O'Brien, executive director for policy, lobbying and global affairs, and Mr. Michael D'Arcy, programme lead for the joint business council of IBEC and the Confederation of British Industry, CBI. They are welcome and I thank them for being here.

I invite Dr. Adele Bergin to make her opening statement.

Dr. Adele Bergin

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to appear before the committee today. I am an associate research professor at the ESRI. I am joined today by our director, Professor Martina Lawless.

We welcome the opportunity to discuss the ESRI and National Institute of Economic and Social Research, NIESR, macroeconomic model of Northern Ireland, known as a macro-model of the Northern Ireland economy, AMNIE, and its potential to support economic analysis on issues affecting Northern Ireland, Ireland and the all-island economy. I led the team that developed the model and am pleased to outline why it was developed, how it works and how it can be used. At the outset, it is important to emphasise that a macroeconomic model is not designed to predict a particular future. Rather, it is a framework that allows us to analyse how an economy is likely to respond under different scenarios and policy choices. In essence, it provides an evidence-based way of answering "what if?" questions.

Until recently, Northern Ireland was the only part of these islands without its own dedicated structural macroeconomic model. Ireland has long had economy-wide models, while NIESR's NiGEM global model is widely used to analyse the UK and international economies. However, there was no comparable framework designed specifically around Northern Ireland's economic structure and its links with Ireland, Great Britain and the wider global economy. This mattered because Northern Ireland has a distinctive economic structure. Productivity levels are lower in Northern Ireland than elsewhere in the UK, investment rates are weaker, exports are less diversified and the public sector plays a relatively large role in economic activity and employment. As a result, policies and external shocks can affect Northern Ireland differently from other regions.

The project we undertook was initially funded by IBEC, which is represented at the meeting. It identified the need for a dedicated macroeconomic model for Northern Ireland. The ESRI subsequently partnered with NIESR, our sister institute in London, to bring together expertise on both the Irish and UK economies. The result was AMNIE, the first dedicated macroeconomic model of the Northern Ireland economy.

Building the model involved not only developing the modelling framework itself but also constructing a comprehensive database for Northern Ireland. The model captures the behaviour of households, firms, government and the external sector, allowing us to analyse the effects of changes in areas such as trade, taxation, public spending and investment. Importantly, the model can also be linked with the ESRI's core structural model of the Irish economy, COSMO, and NIESR's wider UK and global modelling framework, allowing us to examine interactions between the Northern Ireland, Irish, UK and global economies.

The questions the model can address are wide-ranging. What happens to growth and employment if exports increase? How sensitive is Northern Ireland to changes in interest rates? What is the impact of higher government investment? What are the consequences of tariffs or changing trading agreements? What are the economic implications of stronger cross-Border economic integration? These are questions that policymakers increasingly face and where robust evidence can add significant value. While macroeconomic models are often viewed as tools for governments, they are equally relevant to business. Decisions on investment, expansion, supply chains and workforce planning are all influenced by economic conditions. A model such as AMNIE provides a consistent evidence base that can help inform those decisions.

A particularly useful example of the model in action comes from a recent study for the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, which examined the potential impact of US tariffs on the Northern Ireland economy. The analysis considered a range of tariff scenarios and found that Northern Ireland would experience persistent output losses under all cases examined. Trade was the main transmission mechanism, with exports and imports responding more quickly and more strongly than overall output. Under the most severe broad-based tariff scenario, Northern Ireland GDP was estimated to remain around 1.8% below its baseline level by 2030. The analysis also showed that tariffs targeted specifically at the UK or the EU would be more damaging for Northern Ireland than a uniform global tariff because of the northern economy's close integration with those markets.

The study also explored whether Northern Ireland's dual access to the UK internal market and the EU Single Market for goods could provide some protection from these effects. While the simulations suggested that trade diversion could generate some temporary gains, these were not sufficient to offset the wider negative impact of sustained tariff increases. Importantly, the analysis demonstrated how the model can be used to address a live policy issue and generate quantified evidence that is directly relevant to policymakers and businesses.

Beyond individual policy questions, the model has significant potential in an all-island context. Economic links across the island continue to deepen through trade, labour mobility, tourism, infrastructure and energy. As a result, there is increasing value in understanding how developments in one jurisdiction affect outcomes in the other. The model provides a framework for undertaking that analysis and for assessing the impact of policies designed to strengthen economic co-operation. Importantly, the purpose of the model is not to advocate for any particular policy position. Its role is to provide evidence. By making assumptions explicit and estimating their likely economic consequences, the model allows policy discussions to be informed by analysis rather than speculation.

Looking ahead, the model can be used to analyse a broad range of policy issues including productivity, skills, infrastructure, housing, energy and trade.

As the data and modelling framework continues to develop, it will become an increasingly valuable addition to the evidence base available to policymakers in both jurisdictions.

AMNIE represents an important addition to the economic evidence base available to policymakers, the business community and researchers. For the first time, Northern Ireland has a dedicated macromodel that allows us to analyse how the economy responds to policy changes and external shocks, both positive and negative, and to assess the implications of those developments for Northern Ireland, Ireland and the all-island economy. Ultimately, the value of the model lies not in forecasting a single future but in helping policymakers understand the consequences of different choices. Whether the issue is trade policy, investment, skills or cross-Border co-operation, the model provides a framework for moving from assertion to evidence. I thank the Chair and we look forward to the committee's questions.

I thank Dr. Bergin. I now invite Mr. Fergal O'Brien, executive director of policy, lobbying and global affairs at IBEC, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to appear before them. I am joined by my colleague Mr. Michael D'Arcy, who is the programme lead for the IBEC-CBI joint business council on the all-island economy.

The report Dr. Bergin has spoken to, from an IBEC perspective, was born out of the business community's concern about a lack of modelling rigour in understanding the dynamics of the all-island economy. To address this concern, IBEC approached the ESRI in 2021 with a proposal to undertake that much-needed rigorous and data-driven work on the economy of Northern Ireland and, crucially, on the linkages with Ireland's economy. As the committee has heard, this three-year project, working in partnership with NIESR in London, has culminated in a pioneering macroeconomic model.

Our motivation in IBEC for funding and supporting this work was clear. The UK's departure from the EU had caused a systemic disruption to the patterns of trade and business that had steadily developed between our two islands and across the island of Ireland since the 1990s. Today Northern Ireland occupies a highly exceptional economic position. It remains part of the UK's fiscal, welfare and monetary unions yet simultaneously remains within the EU Single Market for goods under the Windsor Framework, while also participating in the common travel area.

The profound economic impacts and effects of this unique interplay of institutions and policies are evolving and present distinct challenges and opportunities for the all-island economy. From the business perspective, the uncertainty of these is the greatest barrier to growth. To plan effectively, the business community and policymakers alike need to move beyond speculation and rely on a shared, evidence-based framework to understand the policy choices that impact Ireland, Northern Ireland and the all-island economy. We now believe that the model Dr. Bergin has spoken to provides exactly this framework. By linking the newly developed model of Northern Ireland to the ESRI's existing work and model for Ireland, and NIESR's global and UK models, we now possess the capacity to accurately simulate how economic shocks, key economic events and policy decisions on one side of the Border impact the other.

From a business and economic perspective, this research underscores several vital realities about the all-island economy. First is the deep trade interdependence. The economic destinies of both jurisdictions are deeply intertwined. For example, in 2025 Ireland purchased over half of Northern Ireland's total goods exports and accounted for about one third of Northern Ireland's goods imports. However, cross-Border services trade remains considerably lower than the goods trade, indicating a very substantial untapped scope for further development of all-island services trade linkages. In relation to the positive economic spillovers, what is good for the Irish economy is good for Northern Ireland. The model's simulations reveal that positive shocks to or key economic events in Irish consumption and Irish exports yield measurable, positive, spillover impacts on the Northern Ireland economy, boosting its output and employment. This reinforces the fact that both economies can have a mutually beneficial impact on each other through enhanced interaction. Finally, on the critical need for further investment, historically, the Northern Ireland economy has underperformed relative to Ireland, largely due to low productivity and persistently low levels of private sector investment. The report models a scenario where the Northern Ireland Executive receives additional revenue and channels it into government investment. The results are highly encouraging. Such government investment actually stimulates, or "crowds in", further private sector investment, leading to a stronger and permanent impact on overall economic output.

For the business community, this modelling framework by both business planners and policymakers is a game-changer. It elevates the economic policy discussion beyond subjective views and allows us to assess a broader set of policy tools. It will provide a roadmap for how policymakers, both North and South, can make the most of the opportunities presented by Northern Ireland's unique positioning while protecting and improving connectivity, trade and business connections across the island. A thriving all-island economy requires strategic foresight, robust cross-Border supply chains and aligned policy priorities. We now believe that this important research provides the framework for these.

IBEC funded this research because we believe that evidence-based policymaking is the bedrock of economic sustainability and social progress. This model provides the Oireachtas, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the business community with an unprecedented analytical tool to navigate the post-Brexit landscape and build a more prosperous all-island economy. Therefore, we ask the committee to recommend that the ongoing use of the model and the continual refinement of its structure by the relevant departments in Belfast, Dublin and London are accelerated so as to deepen policy analysis and debate now and in the future on the interconnected dimension of our shared economic futures.

I thank the Chair and committee members. We are happy to take any questions or comments.

We now go to members. The first slot is a Fianna Fáil one. We go to Deputy McCormack.

I thank Dr. Bergin and Mr. O'Brien for their opening statements. I thank them for their research and the model they have presented to us. What interests me most about the model is how we move from economic analysis on a page to practical decisions that support investment, business and jobs across the island of Ireland.

If the witnesses were sitting down with the Government tomorrow, what are the two or three areas where they believe this model should be used to test policy before decisions are made? Should we use it more systematically to stress-test major decisions on investment, taxation, trade and infrastructure?

Dr. Adele Bergin

I thank the Deputy for the question. There are two parts to this. As to how we should use the model to stress-test different things, that is exactly what the model is there for. The example of our current model for Ireland, COSMO, was given. We regularly provide work for the Department of Finance looking at everything from "What if Ireland becomes more competitive or less competitive?" and "What if the Government in the budget were to cut or to raise income tax rates?" to "If there is a change in ECB interest rates, how will that feed through to the macro economy?". This is so anyone looking to the short- or medium-term future has a forecast of where they think the economy is going. A model is really useful for asking whether a particular assumption is wrong. What if energy prices end up being higher than we had anticipated? It allows us to take account of current events.

One of the big ones at the moment is the conflict in Iran. All our projections for the Irish economy, the northern economy, the UK economy and the wider international economy are predicated on paths for oil prices and gas prices. What if events deteriorate and all these things need to be upgraded? There is a whole list of standard sensitivities and shocks that you would want to use a model for. To plug the model a little, it is the first time we have been able to look at how shocks in Ireland might impact Northern Ireland and how shocks from the wider UK can impact east-west linkages. There is also the fact that we can look at global shocks.

I gave the example of the conflict in Iran, the economic consequences of that and how that feeds through to the international, UK, Irish, Northern Irish and all-island economies. The framework is there to put numbers on some of these things or to help quantify how sensitive the economy is to those.

I have a question for Mr. O'Brien but I will come back to him. One of the findings that stood out for me is that Government investment can stimulate additional private sector investment.

Dr. Adele Bergin

Yes.

Where does Dr. Bergin believe public investment would deliver the greatest economic return and unlock the most private investment in employment? Can this model actually quantify that potential?

Dr. Adele Bergin

The simulation the Deputy is referring to also highlights one of the reasons it is really important to have your own model for Northern Ireland, because it was a scenario where that investment crowded in private sector investment through confidence effects. That is a quantification we found. In regard to where that investment should be, that is not something the model can address and you would ideally need more micro evaluations of priorities on that.

I thank Dr. Bergin. IBEC highlights the fact that cross-Border services trade remains considerably below goods trade and describes this as a major untapped opportunity. What is holding it back and can this model identify the sectors where there is the greatest opportunity for SMEs on both sides of the Border to trade and grow?

Mr. O'Brien also mentioned that Northern Ireland has special status in that it is part of the UK. It operates under the UK's fiscal rules but it also has the opportunity of being in the European Union with regard to trade. In those circumstances, one would expect to have huge inward investment. What are the reasons for that? I know Mr. O'Brien mentioned low productivity. Is low productivity something that can be dealt with fairly quickly or is it something more systemic that needs to be dealt with over a long-term period to bring the Northern Ireland economy up to where it needs to be to participate internationally?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I thank the Deputy for his questions and comments. IBEC has been working on the all-island economy with the Confederation of British Industry, CBI, in Northern Ireland, our sister organisation, for more than 50 years probably. In recent years, we have been very much homing in on what we see as the key strategic issues in terms of where investment will make a difference in developing the all-island economy. The areas that come up most in conversation with businesses both North and South - this relates to the Deputy's questions about the services sector - is the labour market, and the fact that we are not operating a seamless labour market across the island of Ireland. There are a lot of material barriers to cross-Border labour mobility. This is a significant challenge, particularly for services businesses which are looking for that mobility in their workforce across the two jurisdictions. We see that as a significant challenge and one we urge the Oireachtas to support addressing it. The issue of cross-Border work is one I know has been well debated already in this House and elsewhere but it remains an outstanding challenge, in particular for the services sector.

We also have some post-Brexit legacy implications in respect of recognition of professional qualifications, to take one example. We do have some regulatory divergence. Notwithstanding the benefits and the certainty we get through the Windsor Framework, predominantly for our goods sector, we have regulatory divergence in other parts of the economy, and that continues to be a challenge.

If I was to comment on the two or three biggest areas that we would like to see this model applied to, in terms of giving us a stronger evidence base for policymaking, one would be the labour market. Our all-island energy opportunity is also very material. This has been one of the great success stories following the Belfast or Good Friday Agreement with regard to all-island co-operation, a single electricity market and how important that has been for the all-island economy. Crucially, we have struggled to build on that. We have failed to deliver the necessary interconnector for further North-South electricity interconnection, which has been a critical gap.

The Deputy spoke to some of the challenges around productivity, particularly in the Northern Ireland economy. Based on our experience of engaging with businesses extensively in the Northern Ireland economy, it would be very much around the skills agenda. That is probably the most significant barrier to stronger productivity performance. The ESRI may wish to comment on this in the context of separate work it has done. Both in terms of educational outcomes and also skill levels across the economy, Ireland performs significantly stronger. From what we hear from businesses operating in both jurisdictions or in Northern Ireland only, they see that as probably the single biggest challenge to their productivity performances. Unfortunately, in the field of productivity, quick wins are hard to come by. We believe infrastructure can be delivered at pace, with the proper planning and regulatory environment, but a long-term commitment to the education sector, upskilling and reskilling is crucial for productivity.

The witnesses are very welcome. I congratulate the ESRI on the development of the model. It is a very important tool, not just in economic planning, but in the wider all-Ireland plan that needs to happen in the time ahead. To have something of this nature to assist in that is very useful. I also note and acknowledge IBEC's continued work on the development of the all-Ireland economy, which has been very important.

On IBEC's report, I wanted to follow up on Deputy McCormack's questions in relation to labour mobility. It is a very important issue, which is not really jumping out at us from either of the papers we have today. On policy alignment, Mr. O'Brien made a clear point that flowing from this model is a much stronger argument for policy alignment North and South. I fully agree with that and will support any advance in that regard. The report talks about the North-South institutional process but Mr. O'Brien will know that, certainly in terms of the economy, that has its limitations to areas like tourism and intertrade. These are both very important areas in their own right but it does not allow for the full gambit of some of the policy alignment Mr. O'Brien is talking about. How does Mr. O'Brien see that being developed? There are areas of co-operation that can be developed between Departments and while not formally part of the architecture, they are, nonetheless, very important North-South opportunities. Will Mr. O'Brien comment on that and where he sees it being delivered?

To follow up on Deputy McCormack's point on access to the labour market and restrictions. Certainly as regard people who have come from other countries, those restrictions continue. I refer to post-Brexit restrictions in respect of access to labour north of the Border. Mr. O'Brien pointed out the issue of recognition of qualifications. Post-pandemic working arrangements have provided another barrier where people are working from home but technically working for a company on the other side of the Border. I know that in the intergovernmental arrangements, which have been worked through over the past couple of years between Dublin and London, some progress is being made on the double taxation issue. While that is important, it is only one part of this. How does Mr. O'Brien see that agenda being advanced? He spoke about closer arrangements and all of that, and it can come in under that broad umbrella, but for anybody who lives in the Border area, one of the critical areas in respect of the development of all-island economics is the ability for people to move back and forth across the Border and work in either situation. How does Mr. O'Brien see the policy alignment happening outside of the very formal structures linked to tourism, intertrade and access to labour?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I thank the Senator. I will comment again on the cross-Border work issue and ask Mr. D'Arcy to comment on some of the institutional arrangements the Senator mentioned.

Somewhat surprisingly, from our point of view, we have seen the situation in cross-Border work deteriorate since Covid and the advent of hybrid work. It is not that we are not fulfilling our potential; we are actually going backwards. We have a number of employers among the IBEC membership who have informed us that they have stopped hiring workers cross-Border. This is an incredible loss for the all-island economy. Given the opportunities we have now in regard to hybrid work, we should be able to cast that net so much wider in terms of the available skills and workforce. In effect, it has actually narrowed. This is particularly acute in Border areas but it is an issue right across the island and it is a lost opportunity.

The reason for that is employers have become more conscious of their tax and reporting compliance obligations. They have not been able to get any comfort in terms of a joint agreement or meaningful progress on a bilateral agreement between the UK and Ireland. We recognise that has been identified following the outcome of the UK-Ireland summit in March and we hope to see that advanced at speed. That is one element and it will give material comfort to those employers who want to maximise the opportunity of the cross-Border workforce, those who currently feel that, for compliance reasons, they are unable to do so. The tax element is absolutely crucial and we want to see that advanced at pace and we hope to see, come the summit next March, that we will have meaningful progress to report back and for businesses to hear about.

Of course, there are also social welfare issues. Our social welfare systems continue to become more complex. We have the new auto-enrolment for pensions in Ireland this year. We have increased complexity in the social models, both in the UK and in Ireland, that are impacting cross-Border work and those issues need to be addressed. Lots of our members would have first-hand experience of the challenges of cross-Border work in a post-Brexit scenario, particularly the ability of people on work permits to travel from Ireland to Northern Ireland to deliver duties for a services economy or elsewhere in employment. That is still a very significant issue and again, it is a further compliance risk that individuals or employers, in many cases, do not want to take. They tend to avoid those situations which means we are very much limiting ourselves in terms of the full potential of the all-island labour market. I will ask my colleague to comment on the institutional arrangements.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy

The Deputy would know, but perhaps other Deputies would not, that this is a particular area of interest of mine. I could probably talk about it for some time on a general level but I will just take a moment to put one thing on the record because it is important in the context of the background we are speaking to. Yesterday in the House I heard the term "immeasurable progress" used in regard to the development of the all-island economy, stability and peace on the island. In the economic context, we can measure it. The ESRI has quantified it. I know because I was involved in the 1990s in discussions with the business community, trying to focus on the hope and possibility of economics when all of those terrible things that we have suddenly been reminded of were happening. It is important to put on the record that we have made immeasurable progress, from €1 billion to €20 billion now.

On the institutional piece, it is worth focusing on the modalities of this project because how it developed is quite interesting. The ESRI, funded by IBEC, was able to overcome issues around data and an absence of local capacity in order to deliver the product at the end of the day. It is worthwhile thinking about that in the context of what we can do going forward. That is why the IBEC statement focuses on the recommendation that this committee encourage Departments here, in the first instance, to look at the areas for which they are responsible and to figure out whether the model can be used, not just for the impact here but also the impact of that dimension that affects the island or even these islands. There is an urgency about that now, I would suggest, as events evolve in regard to the island, our neighbouring island and its discussion of relationships with the EU, including possibly deepening them. There are scenarios emerging that it would be really helpful to the Oireachtas and the Government to have modelled. It is within the capacity of Departments here to take a much closer look at that. They have the capacity to be supported by North-South bodies, as the Deputy said, like InterTradeIreland and Tourism Ireland, initially. There is also the very detailed Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, report on the cross-Border market produced by the ESRI and the Centre for Cross Border Cooperation, CCBC. Unlike 20 years ago, there is no shortage of data to work from. What we need is budgets, initiatives and a decision to go to the ESRI, give it the money and ask it to model this, to say that this is the result we want to see and we want to see the choices we have as well as what the consequences would be. That would be really useful if this committee could focus on that practical modality piece.

I thank the witness for being here. I have waited many months for us to discuss this. I really appreciate all of the hard work that has been put in by IBEC and the ESRI on the macroeconomic model because there was a huge gap in all of the discussions that we have had across different committees, where we were trying to guess or speculate. This enables us, as the witnesses have said, and one of the most important points is that the model allows policy discussions to be informed by analysis rather than speculation. That is really important, particularly in terms of the constitutional future. People will vote in different ways and will have different views and preferences but this takes the ideology out of it. It presents us with an opportunity to look at different evidence-based scenarios that we can stand over.

There are so many questions in people's minds. Will they, their families, and businesses be better off? What will it look like? What do the forecasts say? The potential of this model is huge in all kinds of ways, even in terms of social cohesion. It works far beyond economics and is pertinent for business, for policy planning and for a whole lot of different areas.

This macroeconomic model will lend itself to much more research being done in terms of forecasting and so on. What are the particular studies the witnesses would like to see done or that could be done now based on what we have here? How do we grow this?

Dr. Adele Bergin

I thank the Deputy. To be honest, there are so many things that we can look at. In our comments to the Deputy's colleague, we were saying that one can look at any of the current challenges facing the Irish, Northern Irish or UK economies. The obvious one at the moment is energy prices because that is one of the biggest pressures right now. In the macro model a range of policy levers can be looked at. Very often we are not the people to define the questions. We would have done a huge amount of work when the UK voted to leave the EU, looking at the potential macro impact of Brexit. That was not something we had thought we would be doing with our model at the beginning.

Does that come from the Government? Who initiates the questions to be answered?

Dr. Adele Bergin

In that particular one, it was our Department of Finance. Usually when we talk to Government Departments, agencies, policymakers and so on, people will say that there are four or five things that they are really concerned about. Some of them will not be suited to a macro model. I am not saying that they are not important issues, just that they are not suitable. We cannot say anything useful about them with a macro model. Others are very straightforward to do but there is always another set of shocks and scenarios that the model, as it currently stands, cannot do but that is not to say that it cannot be developed further. A good example is Brexit. When we started looking at that, as with any shock or scenario, we had to think about the exact economic shocks and put a number beside them. If one thinks of Brexit in its simplest form, it is a big shock to trade. I have a model. I know there will be a big shock to trade, but how big will it be? Where does that number come from? One of the things we were able to do when we were doing that work was to draw on work that Professor Lawless had done looking at various Brexit scenarios and building up different tariff scenarios at a product and sectoral level, aggregated up. That gave us a total trade shock, which I could then put into a macro model to see how this would feed through to the wider economy. From our point of view, that is the real value of having this kind of infrastructure. We can draw on other pieces of evidence and other studies to see how things will, in a broad, macro sense, feed through the economy.

What can it do around energy, for instance?

Dr. Adele Bergin

At the moment, in terms of energy, what we could look at would be energy price shocks.

That is something just off the top of my head. That is what it is set up to do. It is relatively straightforward to do, but even within that we can look at interesting scenarios such as whether energy shocks are temporary or permanent or whether central banks respond by adjusting interest rates - all that kind of stuff - to map out a whole range of scenarios. At least we can stress-test whatever energy assumptions we are thinking of that might apply.

Could Mr. O'Brien speak about business?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

There are lots of policy areas we could look to for where the model can give us a stronger evidence base, whether it is infrastructure delivery, the productivity challenge in terms of the return on investment and for households and jobs in upskilling. One of the most important issues is the demonstration of the linkages. We are looking at the all-island economy as an entity, because that is the way business views it, and at the relationship between the two economies. Until now, there was probably a sense of it being the case that if Ireland is doing well, there are probably some benefits for the Northern Ireland economy, but it was probably open to debate and conjecture and this model provides the evidence base for that, and vice versa. If Northern Ireland is successful in winning investment or employment, that would be good for the Irish economy as well. Now we have a basis on which to quantify that. That is a really valuable contribution. There are lots of individual policy areas and levers that would be really important for us to be able to assess, but the crucial element is having a macro model for Northern Ireland, which we did not have before now. So many policy debates were taken in a vacuum. There is also now a full understanding of the linkages between North and South and east and west. That is a crucial contribution from the modelling work.

My time is up but we will have a second round.

I thank all the witnesses. I am sorry I had to step out for a minute. I attended an IBEC event last Friday and I must say my region, the midlands, is certainly on an upward trajectory. If we can see further progression and development across the island, it will only benefit us further. I very much welcome this opportunity. This project was initiated in 2021 and there were three years of research, with two years for it to bed in. To date, what has been the adaptation or usability rate of the date across Dublin, London and Belfast?

Dr. Adele Bergin

If I am being honest, it is probably not as high as I would like it to be.

Dr. Adele Bergin

We have had some work funded by the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, looking at the potential impact of tariffs on the northern economy. We have tried to publicise the model and highlight the advantages of it because it is a tool that is there for policymakers, the research community and the business community. I was struck by the interaction between Deputy Conway-Walsh and Mr. O'Brien a minute ago. I recall so many times being at a presentation saying, "This is the likely impact of something on Ireland", and there would be a question from someone like the Deputy or someone from the business community who would ask how that would impact Northern Ireland. We were left saying, "Well, um, it is probably positive-ish, maybe." That answer is not good enough, which is why we were really eager to do this kind of work. As Mr. O'Brien said, one of the key things here is capturing the spillovers. We would be really hopeful that Departments and agencies can see the value. To date, Departments and agencies have used our current model for Ireland. I know the model of NIESR, our sister institute in London, is used by government departments, international agencies, central banks and private banks. These models are tools that are quite widely used. We are trying to show people the real value they can get from these kinds of resources.

The ESRI obviously looks at all three jurisdictions - London, Dublin and Belfast - equally. Who should be taking the lead on this?

Dr. Adele Bergin

We are happy to work with everyone.

Professor Martina Lawless

We are happy to produce the research with whoever is willing. On the ESRI's funding model, in order for us to allocate resources to any substantial piece of research, we generally need to have those resources made available through a funding relationship with some organisation or Department. We were very pleased that IBEC supported the construction of the model and the original investment in building up the tool, but for it to be used, it really needs to be supported by-----

Are the witnesses looking to London? Are they looking to the Minister for the Economy in Northern Ireland? Are they looking to the shared island unit? Do they have any thoughts on this area?

Dr. Adele Bergin

All of the above, really.

Okay, but does Dr. Bergin feel it should not be led by one particular entity in Northern Ireland?

Dr. Adele Bergin

Because it is a macroeconomic model, it would probably make sense for it to go to the Department for the Economy but it is relevant to a range of Departments. That is the point. Probably our closest link in macro modelling is to our Department of Finance, but we have also done work for the Department of housing.

Is there any approach IBEC would like to be considered to embed this better?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

We could definitely look at one of the tools. The annual UK-Ireland summits are now quite significant in framing our areas of policy co-operation, where we are identifying energy in particular. Through that process we have identified the issue of the all-island labour market and cross-Border work in terms of the shared infrastructure opportunity, and particularly some of the offshore wind opportunities. It would be great to see the use of the model embedded into something like that process and shared commitments to the roll-out of that model through that process. Mr. D'Arcy might like to comment on some of the other institutional arrangements that could help to support the embedding of the modelling work on an all-island basis.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy

If we go back to the fundamental architecture, this was envisaged as part of the role of the North-South bodies, in particular the North South Ministerial Council, NSMC, at its foundation, to cover the totality of relationships but to easily encompass the economic dimension. InterTradelreland was in there as the trade promotional body. There seemed to be a reluctance to span that economic remit within the NSMC to the broader economic challenges for both jurisdictions on a joined-up basis. That is why I was emphasising earlier that in the absence of the possibility of working through that channel, the kind of bilateral approach that is used by individual Departments could perhaps be leveraged more, dare I say, ambitiously. That is particularly the case if it is an area where there is an economic interest to both. If it serves the all-island economy well, surely a Department here can look at that. If there is an issue with energy, SMEs or enterprise, it can take the lead in developing, to use Deputy Clendennen's words, what could be modelled and they could talk to their colleagues in the North, have an exchange and a conversation, look into the budget possibilities, talk to the ESRI, get that conversation going in the first instance and just see where it goes.

There is an opportunity from a dual-market access point of view, but is there a regulatory burden on a country as a result of the different jurisdictions? Do the witnesses have any thoughts on that?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I do not see any regulatory challenges to the modelling work in itself.

Does Mr. O'Brien see regulation being an obstacle to its adoption into different initiatives?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I do not think so. If we have a commitment to policy alignment and co-ordination, the model can work equally well whether we are looking at a policy in Northern Ireland, a UK policy or a policy in Ireland.

Dr. Adele Bergin

We regularly work with Departments, agencies and people from different countries.

I thank the ESRI and IBEC for being with us today and discussing this very important topic.

Off the back of the research, was there any indication given or sense of what the best investment to be making across an all-island economy is? Is it electrical infrastructure, transport infrastructure, water or skills? Was there any indication in the research or did it form part of the research to identify where the best investment opportunities for an all-island macro outlook are?

Dr. Adele Bergin

It was not part of the research. We just have overall private sector investment and Government investment and how one prioritises within that. Mr. O'Brien spoke earlier about some of the areas where that he felt that this investment should be prioritised.

Any Government should be making informed decisions about the investments it is making.

Dr. Adele Bergin

One of the things that the model could do is if one did have an investment programme, we could look at the rates of return for different types of investment and then say that if we were to make this investment, this is how it would affect the wider macro economy. If we had this investment plan, this is how it would increase the overall productive capacity of the economy and feed through in terms of employment and so on. That is the sort of thing the model can do. It is not going to be able to tell us that we should do transport rather than something else.

The reason I ask is because over the past few years, the shared island initiative has been putting investment into several areas such as transport projects and road projects like the Narrow Water Bridge and trying to put a PSO in place to run a flight to Derry. These are real tangible outcomes of the shared island fund and this is how we build stronger connections. These are economic links as well now. Obviously there is a huge investment in cultural links as well. Was there any look at what the shared island initiative is doing and if those are the best projects it is going after?

Dr. Adele Bergin

We were not involved in the prioritisation of those projects. We are aware of the wider commitment from the shared island fund.

It is important that when Government is making decisions with the shared island fund, they will be the ones that yield the greatest return for the all-island economy.

Dr. Adele Bergin

That sort of work has been done in the past, setting out national investment priorities.

One of the biggest costs facing people north or south of the Border is the cost of doing business and the cost of energy. Are there any opportunities for the all-island economy to become more energy independent to reduce energy costs and burdens on households, families and businesses? Did the ESRI report look into any side around energy opportunities?

Dr. Adele Bergin

We looked more at how energy prices feed through to the macro economy and how they will affect firms and households at a macro level.

Does Dr. Bergin think better co-operation could lead to improved outcomes from an energy point of view?

Dr. Adele Bergin

I think better co-operation can lead to improved outcomes in most areas.

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

From work completed previously between IBEC and the CBI in Northern Ireland that looked at the economic benefits of the North-South interconnector for electricity, we can see that the returns are very material. As I said earlier in my comments, the single electricity market has been one of the great success stories of all-island co-operation, so this model can definitely provide a more rigorous evidence-based analytical framework to look at the impact of some of those infrastructure investments on energy efficiency on the island of Ireland and cost effectiveness.

For IBEC, an all-island labour market is really important for skills, knowledge sharing and labour mobility on the island. What would stop an all-island labour market working or what headwinds would workforces face?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

As I mentioned in some of my earlier remarks, not only are we facing static progression of the all-island labour market, we are actually in reverse at the moment. Because of the complexities with hybrid working, we are seeing more and more of our members reporting that they are no longer hiring cross-Border, and that is an incredible loss of opportunity in the all-island labour market. Both indigenous firms and foreign direct investment looking to make new investment into Ireland want to have a profile of their available talented workforce, and us narrowing our catchment in that workforce to three-quarters of the labour force on the island is a significant limiting factor. We are losing out on investment opportunities by not having a complete all-island labour market. The level of cross-Border work is particularly low on the island of Ireland and, unfortunately, it is actually deteriorating, so there is a very substantial lost opportunity in terms of maximising the benefits of the all-island labour market.

Was any consideration given to measuring better living standards, to the two different economies on the island and the standard of living of people in one economy or the other, and to how it can be better equalised across the whole island?

Dr. Adele Bergin

In other work, we have done broad comparisons of living standards North and South using a whole range of standard metrics. Generally, we find that living standards are higher in the South than in Northern Ireland in terms of things like GDP per capita or GNI* per capita for the Republic of Ireland, household income and other things. One of the things that our wider research shows is that wages in the Republic are around 30% higher than in Northern Ireland. It is consistent with the productivity gap.

So wages are 30% higher in the Republic than in the North?

Dr. Adele Bergin

Yes.

That is incredible.

Dr. Adele Bergin

If we think about workers being paid their marginal product or how productive they are and if we say there is about a 40% gap in productivity North and South, what do you think the wage gap is? It is going to be about that.

Does Dr. Bergin think wages are 30% higher in the South because of successive successful Government policies around enterprise?

Dr. Adele Bergin

That is going to be a part of it. It is the returns to education. It has already been touched on by various people that we have a different educational profile in the South. We have higher shares of all sorts of third level education, from further education and training to graduates and so on.

Mr. Michael D'Arcy

I will pick up on Dr. Bergin's point about national investment priorities and the questions. If you had told us in 1995 or 1996 that the all-island economy would be worth €20 billion in 2026, you would be met with utter scepticism. You might as well retire. Forget about having any credibility. ITI has suggested that it could be worth €30 billion or €35 billion. We have had that discussion within the joint business council and some members actually concur with that possibility, but it will not be achieved unless organically. There is a national investment priority for the all-island economy to be worth €35 billion, but what does that mean in each of the individual sectors? Then we can model it out separately in terms of national policy, all-island policy, etc. That is why we are so keen to recommend that work starts on this straight away.

I think Professor Ronan Lyons said in a lecture attended by me that 96% of the industrial capacity of the island of Ireland was in the greater Belfast area at one point in the 1800s. Looking at our economy today in contrast, it is amazing how trends change.

Mr. O'Brien commented about how labour mobility is on the decline. As Cathaoirleach of the committee, it is regrettable to hear that this is the case. Mr. O'Brien said we are losing out potentially on one quarter of the skilled workforce on the island of Ireland as well and spoke about the consequences of that, so that is significant and worth focus. Could he give an insight into the driving factors? What is causing this decline? Will he give us an insight into that?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

Historically ,the all-island labour market has never delivered on its potential.

We have had reasonably low levels of cross-Border work compared with other economic areas or zones. What has happened since Covid and the advent of hybrid work is that our respective tax systems do not facilitate the foot in both camps. Someone living in Northern Ireland who has an employer in Ireland and is working full-time on-site in Ireland is a relatively straightforward scenario.

On that, has that been a subject of a North-South Ministerial Council meeting or has it been brought up with the shared island unit? Has there been any engagement with IBEC on that matter?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

We have been identifying this problem extensively since the broader advent of hybrid work during Covid. There were some temporary tax arrangements on cross-Border worker relief that supported that. We have identified it through a subgroup of the Labour Employer Economic Forum specifically set up to look at the issue of cross-Border work. It commissioned a piece of research that research from the ESRI also fed into. That report has delivered recommendations. Those recommendations have not been acted on in any substantive way, in our view, but it has formed part of the UK-Ireland summit, and the statement from the summit in March said that the UK and Ireland authorities would take that forward on a bilateral basis. We are looking for progress to be expedited on that, particularly on those taxation issues but also on the broader social welfare issues that I mentioned that impact on cross-Border work.

Absolutely. Ever the parish pump, that summit happened in my constituency, in Fota, so I am delighted to see that, despite the substitution of the Prime Minister of the UK.

On that, I will put the same question to the ESRI. Have the witnesses any comment on that issue? It is just to see what their perspective on it is. The ESRI also commissioned a report.

Dr. Adele Bergin

In our work we did a survey of cross-Border workers and asked them about their motivations and the barriers they face. Workers coming from the North to the South were very much motivated by better salary and career progression opportunities. The common barriers workers reported was the tax return complexity that Mr. O’Brien has alluded to, the exchange rate risk, commuting costs and all that sort of stuff. Another issue raised by some workers was around difficulties in accessing mortgages and so on when working in the other jurisdiction. Documents and that kind of thing just did not count. It is day-to-day stuff. A lot of those surveyed raised the working from home tax rules. Most of the people also saw that Brexit had had a clear negative effect on their ability to work cross-Border, everything from exchange rate volatility, extra banking insurance costs and overall uncertainty. That was the perspective from the worker side.

That information is very interesting. We will open the second round and allow four minutes.

I raised the double taxation convention with the Tánaiste last night. They are taken much more seriously than they had been. What has come back from the UK Treasury has shown a commitment there. While I cannot get an exact timeline, I feel more confident than I was two months ago or even a month ago in terms of the understanding of the real opportunity costs. I am really alarmed to hear Mr. O’Brien say here today that it has even gone backwards. It is extremely urgent. However, I think a fix is imminent. I know Caoimhe Archibald in the North is working closely with the Minister here and the Treasury to try to get that sorted. It is to be hoped that will alleviate that.

I think the way we need to approach this so that it fits in with the programme for Government. It says that there should be a whole-of-government approach to look at things from an all-island point of view. I do not know the exact wording but I know it is there because I pulled it out of the programme for Government many months ago. The way I see we could use this model is that each committee and Department needs to take it and see for themselves what are the questions that it needs to have answered in order to be able to fulfil the commitments that are made in the programme for Government. That is why this is so useful. An area I want to ask about in particular is agriculture, changes to CAP and how we can look at the consequences of that across the island in terms of employment, productivity, food security and all those things. That is just one Department where we can do it. That is why it is good we have the witnesses here discussing it. Indeed, I think they should be in front of all the committees discussing what is relevant to them in particular. For the piece of work the committee is doing around enterprise, tourism and employment on an all-island basis, what the witnesses are presenting here today is invaluable. Will they comment on agriculture and what we can do?

Dr. Adele Bergin

The model in its current form does not distinguish between different sectors of the economy so we do not have a separate agriculture sector. It is not the sort of thing we could look at this afternoon. If we have a really clear sense of some of the various kinds of shocks and the numbers attached to them, there may be something we can do, but I would need more detail before giving a kind of a full answer on that.

On the Deputy’s comments, I am not sure we want to appear in front of every committee but we would be really happy if it helps. In the ESRI, we often go to people and say, for instance, these are the five key things they should be interested in, but we are equally happy to get queries from Departments, Government agencies, employers and so on about the areas that are really big in their world at the moment and what can the ESRI do with that. We are more than happy to be part of those discussions.

Is there a stream of research questions coming through the shared island unit that the Government is looking to have answered?

Dr. Adele Bergin

We have a research programme with the shared island unit. It will sometimes give us a sense of their priorities and colleagues will pitch in for their own ideas. That covers a whole range of topics. To give a sense of that, at the moment we have ongoing projects on productivity and there is one on gender-based violence. It covers a whole range of economic and social issues. It is not just economics and certainly not just macroeconomics.

If each of the Departments were to ring-fence some money to be able to do this work, they would be much better able to make the policy decisions based on evidence and save money so that money is not wasted going into the wrong investments and we are making the investments in the right place. To me, it is a no-brainer because of what it would save Government at the end of it.

When Dr. Bergin speaks about refining the model and the model will continue, will she speak about how it could continue to be refined, what that would take and where the resources for that would come from? Would it be from something like the shared island unit or elsewhere?

Dr. Adele Bergin

Any model, just to keep going, needs to be able to take account of the most recent data that has come out, so you always have to update a database or whatever and maybe having a look at some of the equations. There will also be new questions that we had not anticipated when we were building the model in its current structure, so we might want to add on bits and pieces. That is something that we do a lot with our COSMO model. We get funding in a particular area and we then take the COSMO model and expand it in a particular place, with the idea being that we have a better model at the end. We do need to keep these things live, relevant and up to date. You do need a certain amount of ongoing maintenance funding, as it were.

The more interesting part is around the development and thinking of the key policy issues and shocks we could use.

This is one of the most interesting sessions we have had here in the enterprise, tourism and employment committee, and I thank the witnesses for the information they have passed on to us. After listening to all of the comments and the presentations earlier, the tool is going to be fantastic and of huge use to everybody in business across both economies. It is also going to play a huge part in the reunification of North and South. If we take what an American President said years ago when looking at his own country, “it is the economy, stupid”. Not to be blasé and not for one second taking from the fact the situation in the North of Ireland is an awful lot more complex than that, but the economic side of it is going to be a huge part of it, both for the people up there being part of the whole island initiative and for people down here in the South who want to have a unified Ireland but may be swayed otherwise with the whole difference in the economy and the cost of having that. It is important that we have this tool to be able to model the different situations.

I was very shocked by the difference between the wages we have here and wages in the North of Ireland, and the 30% to 40% difference in productivity. Looking at that, is there a lot of leakage of graduates from the North of Ireland, say, going to the other island or coming to us here in the Twenty-six Counties? Is that a reason for that? We have to bridge that gap.

Regarding what Mr. O’Brien said about having to do it quickly, absolutely, we have to do it quickly and work on it. On how we go about that, many different Departments and groups have to get their heads together to be able to bring that together to make it happen. From what I have heard here, this tool is going to be of huge benefit to us while we are trying to do that, looking at the effects one sector, group or part of the economy will have on the business done in the North of Ireland. Labour, as Mr. O’Brien said, is a huge part in bridging that gap. We talk about the minimum wage and the cost of doing business in the North of Ireland as opposed to the South. There has to be some way of bridging that to make it easier. Education is also obviously a huge thing. We need to make education more available to people in the North of Ireland.

I thank the witnesses very much for their contributions. My question is in regard to the 30% and the difference or wage gap between the other island and ourselves here in the Twenty-six Counties, as well as on the productivity end of it. What is the difference or is there a difference?

Dr. Adele Bergin

I do not have the wage figures off the top of my head. Productivity in Northern Ireland is approximately 20% below the UK average and 40% below the Irish average. I do not have the exact wage differentials. The Deputy made a comment earlier about productivity and the gap in education and skills and asked whether it could it be closed quickly or whether it would take years.

We cannot let it take years.

Dr. Adele Bergin

If we are talking about kids going all the way through the education system, by definition, that takes time. One area of the education system that is more flexible, though, is the further education and training sector. Our institute actually did the evaluation of the post-leaving certificate system a number of years ago and showed the benefits of it. The FET sector is the one that can be quite flexible. Some courses in that area are shorter-----

We have proven in the Twenty-six Counties with the further education through the education and training boards, colleges and universities-----

Dr. Adele Bergin

Qualification in that area is one where there is the biggest gap between North and South. Something like 30% of people in the South have a PLC qualification compared with just 10% in Northern Ireland. That is an area where we can move the dial pretty quickly.

It is, and we have proven it here. If we look at the skill shortages we had around apprenticeships and upskilling with regards to modern technology methods for building houses, we saw how quickly we were able to change that and get those boots on the ground and people to work. There is no reason we cannot do the same up there.

I thank the witnesses. That concludes our-----

Yes, if you want to, briefly.

It is important to point out the disposable income in the North, because it costs less to live. Rent costs less, mortgages are less, and so many other things. Higher wages do not mean we have more in our pockets here.

Dr. Adele Bergin

The gap in disposable income is approximately 10%, so it still favours the South but it is smaller than the overall estimates.

Can we conclude with hearing the witnesses' asks of us as a committee in order to fully utilise the model and what has been done? It is to give each of the witnesses a chance to state them. Is that all right, Chair?

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

I thank the committee for inviting us here to help grow awareness and interest in the model and ask members to use any opportunities they have in their own reports to recommend that individual Government Departments take that stronger, more systematic all-island lens to their policy-working, including applying some of the policy test scenarios we can do with the model. We would very much welcome that. Even having us here is a contribution in terms of advancing awareness and understanding of the model. I thank the committee for that.

I appreciate that. That concludes our discussion today. I thank the ESRI and IBEC representatives for their time and input. We will definitely take it on board for future considerations and recommendations. It is very much appreciated.

Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athló ar 2.17 p.m. go dtí 9.30 a.m., Déardaoin, an 15 Deireadh Fómhair 2026.
The joint committee adjourned at 2.17 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15 October 2026.
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