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Joint Committee on Children and Equality díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Oct 2026

Incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into Irish Law: Discussion (Resumed)

We have received apologies from Deputy Ennis and Senators Bradley, Keogan and Cosgrove.

This morning, we are resuming our consideration of Ireland's pathway to incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNCRC, into Irish law. I am pleased to welcome Professor Conor O'Mahony from the school of law at UCC, Dr. Aisling Parkes, the special rapporteur on child protection, and Professor Ursula Kilkelly from the school of law at UCC. You are all very welcome this morning to the meeting.

We are looking forward to engaging again on this topic, especially with our expert witnesses, and hearing their views on the implementation of the UNCRC into Irish law. As this is Dr. Parkes’s first appearance before the committee, we wish her the best of luck in her role. I thank her for coming to the committee today. We look forward to many future engagements on child protection matters.

Before we begin, there a couple of housekeeping matters. I think we have one or two members on MS Teams. They are very well aware of the constitutional requirement to be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

In advance of our witnesses delivering their opening statements, I advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses will be allocated three minutes for their opening statements. The timer is just under the clock. I will call them in the following order: Professor O'Mahony, Dr. Parkes and Professor Kilkelly. Professor O'Mahony may start his opening statement now.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee this morning. I propose to address two key questions relating to the relationship between the incorporation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Article 42A of the Irish Constitution. My key points will be that incorporation offers an opportunity to mitigate the quite narrow and limited focus of Article 42A and that Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution, relating to the rights of the family and parents, do not present any barrier to incorporation.

On the first point, committee members will recall the 2012 referendum that led to the enactment of Article 42A. The rationale expressed for the amendment during the referendum campaign related to making a clear statement of the value of children as independent rights-holders, putting children at the centre of decision-making and protecting vulnerable children. These are very lofty motivations but they deflected from the fact that Article 42A was in fact a very modest and limited reform. Its main concrete impact was to make it easier for children in long-term foster care to be placed for adoption without the consent of their parents. It has acted as a catalyst for some change in the law governing the duty on courts to ascertain the views of children in certain cases.

Beyond that, the experience since Article 42A came into effect has been that very little has changed. Challenges in sectors such as child protection, education, healthcare and immigration are just as acute as they were in 2012. In some sectors, particularly homelessness, they are significantly more acute. Legislative reform related to children's rights has been slow and often unambitious. The courts have not made any decisions based on Article 42A that would indicate a meaningful new constitutional position on children's rights.

When Article 42A is compared to the text of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the differences are quite stark. Article 42A does not define what rights children have. If one compares this to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, one will see it is made up of 41 articles and several optional protocols that detail the rights children have, many of which are not protected by the Constitution. Even for those parts of Article 42A that do replicate aspects of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, such as the best interest principle and the right of children to be heard, the language of Article 42A is much narrower than the Convention on the Rights of the Child, applying only to specified court proceedings rather than to all matters concerning children, which is the language of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The wording of Article 42A does very little to follow through on the commitment to children's rights that motivated its enactment. It has not stimulated ambitious legislative reform on children's rights and where laws and policies fail to respect children's rights, the restricted wording of Article 42A means that constitutional litigation is highly unlikely to force positive change.

Incorporating the CRC into Irish law has the potential to reach the places where Article 42A cannot. It would provide child-specific legal recognition of a wide range of rights, many of which are not currently protected by the Constitution, such as the rights to healthcare and housing, disability rights, protections for unaccompanied migrant children, and the rights to protection from economic exploitation and protection for child victims. A more detailed list is provided in my separate briefing document.

My second point is simply to head off at the pass any potential claim that incorporation of the CRC might face a constitutional impediment. In Ireland, proposed reforms are often ruled out by Governments on the basis that some constitutional barrier would prevent them. In anticipation of the possibility of any such claim being made with respect to the incorporation of the CRC, I want to pre-empt those claims and place on the record my considered view that no inconsistency arises as between the Constitution and the CRC.

The obvious basis for any such claim in this instance would arise from Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution, which recognise the rights of the family and of parents to make decisions regarding the education and upbringing of their children. There can sometimes be a lazy stereotype that children's rights and parents' rights are a zero-sum game, that you cannot grant more rights to children without taking away from the rights of parents. However, this overlooks the fact that, for the most part, the rights of children and of parents are not actually in tension with one another. Parents are normally the ones who advocate most strongly for the rights of their children to be vindicated by the State. In a huge range of cases, granting stronger rights to children will in fact strengthen the hands of their parents when seeking better education, healthcare or housing for their children.

The CRC itself specifically recognises and protects the role of parents in the exercise of children's rights. The preamble to the CRC uses language strikingly similar to Article 41 of the Constitution when it describes the family as "the fundamental group of society and the natural environment for the growth and well-being of all its members and particularly children". This is bolstered by Article 5 of the CRC, which requires states to "respect the responsibilities, rights and duties of parents ... to provide, in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child, appropriate direction and guidance in the exercise by the child of the rights recognized in the [CRC]." Children's rights scholars therefore agree that the CRC places considerable emphasis on the importance of the family and of the role of parents, and that it was never intended that the CRC would undermine the family unit in any way.

The Constitution, likewise, recognises the rights of children but it presumes that those rights are normally best protected by their parents within the family. However, it also sets limits to this presumption and provides for intervening in family life to protect the rights of children. Heightening the legal obligations on the State to vindicate children's rights through incorporating the CRC will provide families with better remedies in cases where the State fails to do so. It will not undermine the constitutional position of parents and the family, for the simple reason that the CRC is based on the same premise as the Constitution, namely, that in the vast majority of cases, parents are best placed to make decisions for their children.

Many thanks for inviting me to speak to the committee. I am very happy to answer any questions members might have.

Go raibh maith agat. I now invite Dr. Parkes to deliver her opening statement.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

I thank the committee for inviting me here. As special rapporteur, my role is to identify emerging child protection issues as well as whether Ireland's legal framework is sufficiently equipped to respond to them. This inevitably raises questions about the extent to which the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is reflected in Irish law and whether incorporation would provide a stronger and more consistent rights-based foundation for decision-making affecting children.

Ireland has made considerable progress over the past decade. Through constitutional reform and legislative and policy developments, the State has increasingly embedded children's rights within its legal and institutional frameworks. The inclusion of Article 42A in our Constitution marked a watershed moment, driving reforms across the family law system in particular. Given Article 42A's limited focus, however, and our largely piecemeal legislative approach to children's rights, gaps in protection still remain.

My first point is about Ireland's legal obligations and a commitment to children's rights. In 1992, Ireland ratified the convention, accepting that children are rights-holders, entitled not only to have their best interests protected but also to have a whole host of other rights protected under the convention. That commitment has increasingly informed Irish policy discussions and legislative reform.

The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, the international body of experts responsible for overseeing the convention's implementation, has called on Ireland four times to incorporate the convention into Irish law, commenting on the "somewhat fragmented" approach in 1998, encouraging "to undertake further action to incorporate" in 2006, urging Ireland to "take, as a matter of priority, all necessary measures" to incorporate in 2016 and, most recently, in 2023, commenting that Ireland should fully incorporate the convention into Irish law.

Let us envisage a system where decision makers, public bodies and courts have a clear and coherent framework through which all children's rights are interpreted and applied. Incorporation is about giving practical effect to rights that Ireland has already committed to uphold.

My second point is on bringing legal coherence to children's rights in Ireland. Contemporary understandings of childhood are markedly different today. Progress has been gradual but significant. Let me provide just one example of the transformative potential of a fuller incorporation of children's rights into Irish law: Since 2015, Article 12 relating to respect for the views of the child has been partially incorporated into Irish family law and has resulted in several important legislative, policy and cultural developments. Among these include the Children and Family Relationships Act of 2015, the voice of the child report guidance and templates, and the Children's Court advocate pilot. Arguably, however, the most significant change in this area has been cultural. Hearing the views of children in family law cases is no longer simply good practice, but a legal and constitutional requirement. This mirrors broader developments in society, including increasing emphasis on children's rights in education, child protection and public policy-making. These developments reflect something much more profound than legislative change. They reflect a transformation in how Ireland understands children. Collectively, these developments demonstrate how the incorporation of children's rights principles in domestic law can drive meaningful change.

The experience within the family law system provides a compelling example of the potential benefits that could flow from a more comprehensive incorporation of the convention into Irish law. The question before us is whether the law should now catch up with the cultural progress that has already taken place. Incorporation would provide legal coherence to this progress and provide a clear path forward.

My final point relates to stability and accountability. Governments change, and with them, political priorities. Progress achieved through policy can be vulnerable to future shifts in direction. Children's rights should not depend on the priorities of a particular administration. Incorporation offers something more durable, namely, a framework capable of connecting areas that are often considered separately, and a common language for decision-making. It strengthens accountability.

Ireland is not starting from zero. For more than 30 years, we have been travelling in a clear direction, where the principles of the convention have shaped our legislation, our public policy and, increasingly, our understanding of childhood itself. However, Ireland still has a way to go in terms of the Ireland we aspire to be. The question is whether we are prepared to close that gap. Incorporation would not create new values for Ireland. Rather, it would give legal force to values Ireland has already embraced.

Gabhaim buíochas le Dr. Parkes. Just before I come to Professor Kilkelly, if members have any negotiations to do about the speaking rota - I know some are rushing - they can do that now and I will come to them.

I invite Professor Kilkelly to deliver her opening statement.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I thank committee members for the opportunity to be here with this morning for an important dialogue on the incorporation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child into Irish law.

As a professor of law at University College Cork, I have spent almost 30 years researching international children's rights law, focusing in particular on how to implement the convention and related international standards so that they can have real impact on the lives of children and young people. During that time, I have researched the legal implementation and incorporation into domestic law and policy, undertaking two large-scale comparative studies on the subject. Through this and other work, I have developed a wide understanding of both the variety of approaches to incorporation and their varying impacts. Many countries, including our near neighbours, have taken steps to give the convention the force of domestic law, meaning that there is now an impressive body of experience from which we can draw. In this respect, even if it is long overdue, I am very pleased to see this debate begin in earnest in Ireland.

I will make four brief points. First, I will outline what is legally required. Article 4 of the convention provides that states to the convention must undertake all appropriate legislative, administrative and other measures for the implementation of the rights in the convention. Legal implementation or incorporation is but one part of this duty and it is up to states to decide what is appropriate in each context.

Second, it is important to distinguish between the concepts of implementation and incorporation. Implementation, in line with Article 4, can take a number of forms, but clearly includes legislative implementation, where national law is enacted, giving effect or legal status to the convention.

This can be done with respect to individual provisions of the convention, which Ireland has already done, or the entire convention, which is, in broad terms, the Scottish approach, which the committee considered last week. Implementation also includes the range of legal measures that are designed to implement the convention. These include establishing mechanisms to support or monitor children’s enjoyment of their rights. Incorporation is where particular provisions of the convention are given the force of domestic law. This can be part incorporation where specific articles are transposed or full incorporation where the entire convention becomes part of national law. This can involve either direct incorporation where the provisions are literally written into law or indirect where mechanisms are used such as like Article 42A of the Irish Constitution requiring or permitting state bodies like the Oireachtas to give further effect to the convention or its provisions.

It is important to note that in most civil jurisdictions, the convention is incorporated automatically when it is ratified by government. This is not the case in most common law countries where there is a separation between international and national law. This is the case in Ireland where Article 29.6 of the Irish Constitution provides for the avoidance of doubt that no international agreement shall be part of the domestic law of the State save as may be determined by the Oireachtas.

Although incorporation is not a requirement of the convention, it is one way in which its legal implementation can be achieved. It is recommended by the Committee on the Rights of the Child and for a variety of reasons, it is difficult to see how the obligation to implement the convention can be achieved without full and direct incorporation. More importantly perhaps, what we do know from a variety of international studies, including those that have involved children themselves, is that children are more likely to enjoy their rights in their day-to-day lives when those rights have the protection of law. This is for a variety of reasons - social, cultural, legal and economic - but it is nonetheless clear that in those countries where children’s rights have strong legal protection in domestic law, they are likely to be better protected in practice.

Most importantly, our research tells us that every country has its own incorporation journey with most building towards incorporation through the adoption of gradual and incremental steps. These typically include the establishment of a commissioner or ombudsman for children, the adoption of a national strategy to advance implementation of the convention on a cross-sectoral basis, the establishment of a dedicated cabinet level ministry with responsibility for children’s rights, a process of legislative review to highlight any gaps between the convention and current law and policy, the introduction of parliamentary child rights impact statements to improve compliance with the convention in the enactment of law and policy, public campaigns and specialist training and incorporating the teaching of the convention into the school curriculum.

The committee will be aware that through the work of many Departments, agencies and civil society organisations over the past three decades in Ireland, this work is now well advanced. Far from being a substitute for incorporation, our research shows that these measures are both important in their own right but also have critical meaning as the distinct stages in Ireland's incorporation journey. I look forward to engaging with the committee in the course of today's discussion and in the future in order to determine the best way for Ireland to build on its successful implementation of the convention so that children's rights are enjoyed by all children in all circumstances.

I thank the witnesses for their immense work on this. I think we are going to have a very robust discussion with these experts. I propose that we publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Parkes argued that Ireland has made significant progress in recognising and protecting children's rights, particularly since the introduction of Article 42A of the Constitution but that despite these advances, children's rights protections remain fragmented and she believes that the full incorporation of the of the UN convention on the Rights of the Child into law is needed to provide a stronger and more consistent legal framework. I want to bring up legislation that was passed in July.

I will give a summary of Valerie's law. I do not aware if the witnesses are aware of it. Valerie's law was introduced following the campaign by the family of Valerie French who was murdered by her husband in 2019. The law addresses a serious gap in Irish family law whereby a parent convicted of killing the other parent could still retain guardianship rights over their children. The legislation, formally known as the Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Act 2026, ensures that a parent conflicted of murdering or unlawfully killing the other parent does not automatically retain guardianship rights. Under the new law, Tusla must bring the matter before the courts, which can remove or suspend those guardianship rights. With the child's best interests as the paramount consideration, the legislation applies to both married and unmarried parents. The law reflects a shift towards placing the welfare rights and protection of children at the centre of decision-making in circumstances of extreme family trauma. Does the need for Valerie's law demonstrate that Ireland's current constitutional and legislative framework does not adequately protect children's rights in all circumstances? Would full incorporation of the UNCRC provide a stronger and more consistent basis for safeguarding children's best interests?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I will make a couple of general points at the beginning, then I will hand over on the more specific points. There is no question that incorporation is not a panacea for the kind of rigorous legislative reform processes that will need to continue as part of government and our democratic decision-making processes. Where incorporation is important in the Senator's example is twofold. One is the process that one would have to go through prior to incorporation where the review of legislation in light of the convention would produce a set of reforms designed to bring about compliance. We would not incorporate it without having a sense of where the gaps were.

The second thing with incorporation if we fast-forward to that world where if we have incorporated the convention, then we would see, ideally, the best interests principle being used to inform the kind of practices and decision-making areas that the Senator is talking about. There is an overarching requirement to act in the best interests of a child, with other rights also of course, that would be taken into account in that kind of situation. It would probably accelerate and make clearer the path to reform through both the process of incorporation and having the convention on the statute books.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

To add to that, notwithstanding some of what I said earlier about the fact that the CRC would add detail that our Constitution does not have currently have on rights, it is still not a comprehensive guide to how children's rights are to be protected in every possible situation. The nature of international human rights law is that it tends to approach things at a level of generality. If we look at the specific example that the Senator has given of Valerie's law, the CRC probably does not contain sufficient detail in the text of the convention to provide a clear direction on exactly how that particular issue is to be resolved in every one of the 196 state parties to the convention. It provides a broad framework. As my colleagues have alluded to, that broad framework can then inform decisions which will be made on much more specific issues, for example, the position of guardianship following a homicide. It would be then for the Oireachtas and the courts in cases that will address that to then use that broad framework to inform the decision they would arise at. It would not necessarily provide a prescriptive answer to every possible question on children's right that arises. It is about the setting the terms of the conversation and ensuring children's rights are front and centre in that conversation.

To take that specific example, the risk that may have arisen in the past would be because the marital family in particular had very strong constitutional rights, and probably for a long time there would have been a sense that we could not remove a married parent as a guardian because of the constitutional rights they held, that would have been the entire focus of the analysis. Whereas when we bring children's rights into that equation through a process like incorporation, we can then set the terms whereby we ensure that decisions on issues like that are made in a way that ensures that the child's best interests is the primary consideration.

It is then not solely a question of the parent having a right that cannot be disturbed because that parental right must be balanced and must, at times, give way to children's rights also.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

Valerie's law is a really challenging area, in particular, along with guardianship, custody and access. As Professor O'Mahony has pointed out specifically in relation to our guardianship, custody and access laws, for a long time they were centred on parental rights until Article 42A readdressed that balance.

In terms of what incorporation of the convention would bring to this area, it is really important to highlight two issues. First, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child provides significant guidance on all of the provisions of the convention. The committee provides detailed general comments which explain how particular provisions or areas of the convention should be implemented within a legal context. That is beneficial. Specifically, the committee has always said the convention should be interpreted in a holistic way. You do not look at any one individual right on its own. They are underpinned by what we call the guiding principles, namely, non-discrimination; right to life, survival and development; the voice of the child; and the best interest principle. All of those underpin the implementation of all of the other rights of the convention. Currently, we do not have that safeguard. That is really important.

Second, the committee has always said that an individualised approach for children is needed. We need to look at each particular child within their own context and their specific circumstances. If you are looking at children in an individualised way within the family context, that is the optimal approach in making decisions on guardianship.

Be it directly or indirectly, we are talking about the UNCRC being transposed into law. I am assuming that direct incorporation is the easiest and best way. Is that correct? Does it matter?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

That depends. A legislative enactment is the single most common way that states that have not automatically incorporated the convention have transposed the entire convention.

The other one involves dealing with it through various mechanisms outside-----

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Exactly. There is a more indirect and more piecemeal approach - there are multitudes of ways to do it - but the adoption of a single piece of legislation that would incorporate the convention is the simplest method.

It is the simplest and easiest. When we are talking about a review process, what timeline should we be looking at? I am referring to a review of legislation and how one thing impacts on the other.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

There is no single timeline. Countries have all taken their own journey, in our experience.

How quickly could this be done if we set out to do it and started properly?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Experience would say the process is really important. The process of raising awareness of and understanding what incorporation involves will be critical to its ultimate success. A legislative review process takes time. At the very least, we are talking about an initial review in a 12-month period. Beyond that, the process of-----

I get it. We are talking at least 12 months. Like any decent plan, there will be unintended consequences and that will be have to be reviewed.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

It was very quick in Scotland, relatively speaking. That is the most obvious and nearest example. It took three years, with some interruption.

From what we heard last week, certain pieces of work had probably already been done. The legislation was following up on an ethos that was already being employed across agencies.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Completely. The Scottish measure was in place and there was already an awareness and an intent evident prior to the incorporation formally beginning.

It seemed to be a big improvement on the Welsh half-measure. When we talk about competing rights, in a perfect world, we would be looking for a government, for want of a better term, that employs child-centred decision-making as much as possible.

Obviously, it is possible to have the best legislation in the world, but unless there is the capacity and the resources to deliver on that, it will be a mess.

I will look at one aspect. We have all spoken about Tusla and child supports over the years. In fairness, I always add the caveat that it is not possible to deal with the issues that Tusla has responsibility for with the resources the agency has. To some extent, it is in an unfair position where it is always going to fail.

As much as I see the necessity of maintaining the family unit, there are many cases where I would disagree with that explicitly. I believe it is not in the child's interest for that objective to be overly focused on. I also accept that resources come into play in such situations. If the UNCRC was embedded in Irish law, how would it change that particular set of circumstances? I know this is a wildly hypothetical question. I would like to think that in the context of the rights of children, we would at least be eyes-on in a better way so that they are at the centre of decision-making.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

I thank the Deputy for the question. He alluded to the issue of resources, which looms very large in this context. We already have a framework in Irish law that provides for intervention in families where children are not being adequately cared for within the family unit. The Constitution makes provision for that, as does the Child Care Act 1991. Many of the challenges we see in that space arise from the underresourcing of the relevant services.

On the Deputy's question on what incorporation of the UNCRC into Irish law could add, a lot depends on the form of incorporation. We are probably going to be saying "it depends" a lot in response to questions, because so much does depend on the form of incorporation. To the extent that the CRC could help to address that issue of persistent underresourcing, the form of incorporation could potentially lead to that. We currently rely on a constitutional framework where using that as a lever to compel the provision of additional resources is very difficult because of various Supreme Court decisions over the years in which the court has expressed a reluctance to make decisions that would have implications for public resources. Essentially, it has said it is a matter for the Executive branch of government to make decisions about the allocation of resources and that the courts do not have an explicit role in respect of interfering in those sorts of decisions, even where, potentially, constitutional rights are at stake.

Depending on the form of incorporation, it may place a greater emphasis on the duty to adequately resource child protection services. It may provide an avenue for remedies in situations where those resources are not forthcoming. If a statute were enacted to allow people to make arguments based on the CRC in domestic courts, that approach might not find itself bogged down in some of those separation of powers concerns that impede the use of constitutional arguments in that context.

We do not want something that just leads to clogging up the courts. When we spoke about Sweden and Scotland, we mentioned the idea that, on some level, it meant that the focus was on the child and the decision-making was better. There is, obviously, always the leverage that cases can be taken, if necessary. I imagine Professor O'Mahony would not foresee a huge number of cases being taken. The idea would be that the outlook and ethos would be better within these agencies.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

Absolutely. The reality is that litigation is a last resort in all of these circumstances. When dealing with the rights of children, there are also questions concerning access to justice which determine how many of these cases can get to court in the first place. It is about providing a safety net in that situation of last resort rather than it being the first option.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I will make one further point of general interest in this context. In the work we have done in other countries, Norway stood out. We talked to a number of practitioners, social workers and those representing children. They spoke very clearly about the value of having the convention as their law. We know the legal framework is very important in respect of how Tusla operates and how decision-making is framed.

The Constitution had the priority of shifting the emphasis. We know that where the convention is incorporated, those practitioners use it day to day in ways that they do not when it is an international law that is somewhat far away. That is a really practical example of how the day-to-day decision-making is actually impacted by having the convention incorporated beyond the system issues, which, of course, are also important.

I apologise for being late. It is one of those mornings. I had to speak in the Seanad and, unfortunately, I have to back there in a minute. I welcome all the witnesses and thank them for the great work they do. It is great to see people up from Cork - the rebels abú. If any of my questions has been asked already, the witnesses can just say so and I will move on.

Professor Kilkelly noted that Ireland has already undertaken many of the preparatory measures recommended internationally. What does she see as the next practical legislative step towards full incorporation of the CRC?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I thank the Senator for the welcome. The obvious next step is where we are today in terms of an important political and wider public debate about incorporation and raising awareness and an understanding of what its significance could mean and how it could be approached. That is a step that has been fundamentally important in other countries. This kind of political process is hugely influential in shaping and building consensus around incorporation. That is the first thing. Second, as I said in my opening remarks, there is no one way to do this and so building the consensus around what is the optimal approach for Ireland is really key. That requires a lot of painstaking work in terms of looking at the existing legislative framework, reviewing legislation in light of the convention and moving towards agreement around a position, whether, as we have previously spoken about, it is a single piece of legislation or what mechanism would be necessary. We have not talked at all about constitutional incorporation. That is certainly something that should be considered among the suite of options. However, it is about the move towards the drafting of both the review mechanisms and the adoption of legislation.

There has been some work done on this, but the missing piece is a process of impact assessment and moving in the short term to regularly reviewing the impact of legislation and policy from the CRC perspective. Many countries have these mechanisms in their parliamentary systems. It is an important next step for Ireland to introduce a mechanism that routinely has the convention's impact on a legislative piece of reform reviewed and statements accompanying legislation that would assess its impact. That would embed a culture of understanding the implications of the convention into our legislative process.

Professor O'Mahony argued that Article 42A has a limited practical impact. What aspects of the CRC would most effectively address the gaps that remain in our law?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

There are rather a lot of aspects to the extent that Article 42A makes broad reference to children having rights but provides no definition whatsoever of what those rights are. What we were told in the official information provided by the Referendum Commission during the referendum campaign in 2012 was that it would be a matter for the Irish courts to elaborate on what those rights are. In other words, Article 42A would simply say that children have rights but court decisions would tell us what those rights are and how they are to be protected. Article 42A came into effect in 2015. We have now had 11 years of experience of its operation. In that time, the courts have not shown any appetite for expanding on what the detail is underlying that broad umbrella guarantee of children's rights. That would be in line with the approach of the courts to other provisions in the Constitution whereby, essentially, the idea that the courts would hand down decisions that would recognise new constitutional rights, which they used to do quite regularly in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, has gone out of fashion as a technique in Irish constitutional law. What the CRC would add is that detail. There are 41 separate articles in the CRC and an extremely lengthy list of rights.

Rights that are protected in the CRC include incredibly important and quite basic ones at times, like housing, healthcare, protection from economic exploitation and protection for migrants, none of which are explicitly protected by the Irish Constitution vis-à-vis children as things stand. What incorporation of the CRC could add is making it clear in Irish law that these are rights that children hold and then, again, depending on the form of incorporating, placing obligations on the Oireachtas and-or the courts to further give effect to those rights. As it stands, Article 42A can do that in theory but has not really done so in practice due to the lack of detail.

Dr. Parkes highlighted the success of incorporating Article 12, on the child's right to be heard. What lessons does that experience provide for wider CRC incorporation?

Dr. Aisling Parkes

The incorporation of Article 12 is limited and specific to childcare proceedings, adoption proceedings, and guardianship, custody and access proceedings. It has taken a significant amount of time for this to happen, but the culture has changed, and that is really important. There is an awareness now that was not there before in relation to the importance of ensuring that children's voices are heard in order to ensure that their best interests are protected. Those rights go hand in hand. There is a lot to be learned from that in terms of the other rights contained within the convention because that cultural change and that thinking around children's rights would spread out to other areas of children's lives and other important rights that they should have protected and for which we should be accountable. We have a lot to learn and the path is there to follow in terms of protecting children in that space.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I will start with implementation. Professor Kilkelly mentioned the Scottish approach, including legislative implementation of the entire convention. How was this was achieved and does this approach work well? What are the pros and the cons of this approach, and could it work in Ireland? Would we need to have a certain framework and a certain timeline in place to make sure it could work long term?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I thank the Deputy for his question. It is a big one. I know the committee had before it those who are very close to the Scottish experience. I worked very closely with the Scottish children's commissioner and the civil society organisations as we worked through the issues in Scotland over several years. The culture and the motivation were very clear from the outset politically in Scotland. That was a really important driver. It came from the First Minister, and that was a hugely important step or a hugely important part of the process.

The other lesson learned was the involvement of a whole range of stakeholder groups and other organisations right from the beginning. There was a huge process of dialogue, engagement and training, including the voices of young people themselves in that process. All of that helped to build a groundswell of support but also, critically, to tease out the issues as to what it could not achieve, what the barriers were going to be, whether it could address resource questions and how they were going to be resolved. It was a matter of having those open discussions, including with those who simply do not agree that incorporation should be a priority or that children's rights are a priority, and teasing out those issues and how they would work not just in the areas we are talking about - for example, child and family law - but also in environmental law, planning law and how we are building our housing estates and resourcing our communities. These are the areas where the convention's benefit is often underestimated in that orientation around children creating a child-centred decision-making process across government, in a whole-of-government way.

Those are the kinds of lessons I think we can learn from Scotland. Obviously, the jurisdiction is very different in legal and other ways. Our parliamentary process is different too, and we have to find how it works best in our setting.

What we can see beyond Scotland is a move towards full incorporation. One of the downsides of moving away from that approach is that we start picking and choosing convention rights. The convention is very clear, as is the committee, that these rights are indivisible. We cannot pick from the convention’s range of rights. They are all rights to which children are entitled. That is one of the major advantages of an incorporation Bill, such as in the Scottish approach and the approach in other countries, such as Sweden, Iceland and Norway. I would say the disadvantage of it is that it is so comprehensive and the body of work that has to be done is so enormous that it can be overwhelming, given the range of areas where it must have effect. That requires a level of process and knowledge of the convention, which comes back to my point on awareness raising, debate, dialogue and the commissioning of research and policy work on how this can be done. As I have said, that preparation has been critical to the success of incorporation in those countries. Those working with the convention, including social workers and judges, will have their own views on the challenges for them, and hearing those from the outset is key. Those are some of the issues we have seen in our work.

I was just looking at how various countries implement this, for example the Swedish, Scottish and Finnish models. Are we years behind? Is that what we are facing? Is there any way we can speed this up? Is there a way we can tap into this knowledge base?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

That is the advantage; we are able to tap into the knowledge base of what has been done, and our international studies show the range of experience. It is really about taking all of that knowledge and finding the most appropriate and effective way for Ireland. It is also key that it is culturally, socially and politically acceptable. We are working through all of that.

We could say Ireland is late to this but the movement to incorporate the convention is a relatively recent one, given what I said already about countries that have incorporated it automatically. Many other countries have gone down this route quite deliberately and that is relatively new. Those are the countries from which we must learn. The legal and social culture in countries that automatically incorporated the convention at the time of ratification is very different. There is a huge amount of knowledge here now and that is the advantage of where we are. We are learning about the process as much as the legislation. We are still waiting to see the post-incorporation impact. That is still a relatively fresh experience in many countries and working our way through that, documenting it and learning from colleagues is also going to be important.

I thank all of our visitors for their opening statements. Would Professor Kilkelly mind, as quickly as she could, differentiating again between the benefits of incorporation as opposed to implementation? When Mr. Adamson was here last week, he noted the importance of incorporation and the benefit of it, but when I put it to him that it was not a panacea, he acknowledged that. On our road to implementation, and Professor Kilkelly has outlined a number of steps we have taken, what would be the difference if we went the incorporation route?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

In short, it is a matter of, perhaps, degree and the pace at which change can be achieved. Implementation is a gradual process. It requires a whole range of legal and administrative steps and the committee is familiar with those. That is a process that can bring results and can bring the convention closer to children’s daily lives, which is our ultimate priority and ultimate objective. Incorporation is more of a big-bang approach. It would involve a much bolder statement and a more comprehensive legal measure that set out clearly in Irish law that the convention was part of the domestic legal system in a formal and comprehensive way.

From that point of view, there is a decision to be made, as Mr. Adamson would have said. We are certainly on a very clear process and path towards greater legal implementation of the convention. Every time legislation is being adopted, we do see a level of engagement with convention rights. We see the importance of that. That will have to continue, and I think will continue regardless of incorporation, but the scale of that activity is accelerated by incorporation, by a single step which incorporates the entire convention. It is a matter of pace and scale.

One of the things about implementation, which was mentioned in the opening statement, is to establish the "mechanisms to support and monitor children’s enjoyment of their rights". I cannot remember who was accompanying Mr. Adamson last week, but when I asked about the mechanisms they have in Scotland now, given the convention has been incorporated into the country's law, the answer was that they were not very varied and they were not very extensive. In fact, the witness noted that one of the things was just a greater awareness among children of their rights, and that they campaign on the back of that. That is not foolproof either, though, and maybe we would prefer to have the mechanisms to make sure those rights are being respected.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

There is no doubt that, as the Deputy said at the outset, it is not a panacea; it will not address all children’s rights issues. We know throughout, and my colleagues have lots of experience of this too, the extent to which countries have adopted perfect laws and their implementation is sadly lacking. We know this is an issue, which is why, again, the point about process is so important. Culture change is hugely important. At some level, incorporation is something of a symbolic gesture. It is not to say it is only that, but it is an important statement about where we view children in society and in our legal system. The examples we have had of how children are part of that process are really a good illustration of the changed way that law-making and policy-making would take place after incorporation.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

There is no panacea. It is a very complicated task. It is about trying to create the conditions and a catalyst for what we will do later on. We amended the Constitution and that has helped a little, but there is a lot it has not done. This is about adding to that.

On that point regarding the amendment of the Constitution, it was said the courts have not commented on it. Has nobody taken a case based on it to the courts?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

The courts have considered a very small number of cases. Again, on the question of constitutional litigation, it is not a very accessible avenue because, by its nature, it all happens from the High Court upwards. As a result, it becomes a self-fulfilling thing where people look at it and see that not a lot is happening, and then we do not have the incentive for people to take strategic cases based on the constitutional provisions because of a sense that those cases are unlikely to go very far. We can compare that to the experience in South Africa, for example, where the courts have taken a very dynamic approach to enforcing their constitutional provisions on children’s rights and that has invited other people to take ambitious strategic cases based on those. We are at the opposite end of that experience.

One of the things that incorporation could do, rather than it being all focused on constitutional law and having to go all the way to the Supreme Court, is to bring it down to that lower level where arguments can be raised and made at all levels of the court system. Equally, it is not only about the court system, but also about making children’s rights obligations a bigger part of the work of the Oireachtas, State agencies and so on.

One thing that emerged from Professor O’Mahony's contribution was somewhat alarming. It is that one of the provisions of the convention is not addressed in Article 42A, or any other provision of the Constitution. I am seeking reassurance from him that covered somewhere in law is the right of children to protection from economic exploitation.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

At the moment, there are elements of it. We do have laws on the statute book that address the minimum age to work and things of that nature. There is a provision in the Constitution that makes reference to this matter, but it is in Article 45 of the Constitution, and it is explicitly stated that the article is not to be enforceable in the courts. Article 45 is entitled "Directive Principles of Social Policy", and is directed towards the Oireachtas.

To that extent, there is an acknowledgement of the importance of that issue, but it is not something that is enforceable in a court context. Some of the case law we might see in other countries, where people have used a constitutional right to freedom from economic exploitation to advance children's rights on certain issues, would not be possible in an Irish context because that provision is not enforceable.

I thank the witnesses for being here. Professor O'Mahony mentioned Article 42 and how one of its main drivers related to children in foster care being able to be adopted without parental consent. It is not my experience, but is it Professor O'Mahony's experience that has been implemented and is working across the country?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

Yes, we have certainly seen a change in that respect. Following on from the amendment coming into effect in 2015, there was new legislation enacted in 2017. Previously the conditions that needed to be set for a child to be placed for adoption without parental consent were so onerous and difficult to satisfy that, in practice, it only ever really happened where a child was already 17 years old and it was simply a case of formalising what had already been the case throughout their childhood before adulthood for inheritance and other purposes. It is now possible, however, after a period of three years and subject to a number of other conditions, to advance an application for a child in foster care to be adopted by the foster parents. We are seeing those applications coming through. It is not happening in enormous numbers but by its nature it is never going to be in enormous numbers. They are coming through and there are children now being placed for adoption who would not have been able to be placed for adoption prior to the enactment of Article 42A.

Looking at a real concrete impact of Article 42A, that is probably the clearest example to show how the law was one way before and is now different because of Article 42A. It is a very definite, concrete impact. The other place we can see concrete impacts coming through are the laws around children being heard in court proceedings, which have been strengthened and tightened up in a number of ways pursuant to that obligation. Beyond that, the rest of Article 42A was largely taking things that were already the position and simply restating them, rather than changing the law from the pre-existing position.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

I wish to add to that specifically in relation to family law proceedings or childcare proceedings and the voice of the child. We must remember that there is a gap between what the law says and what actually happens in practice. While intentions are good in terms of listening to children, sometimes the experience of children does not match what the law is setting out to do. For example, sometimes they may not necessarily feel that their voices are heard depending on the mechanisms that are used. Sometimes these measures take time to get right. We have talked about incorporation not being a panacea, but even if we do incorporate, it will still take time for those measures to be implemented in practice and to be experienced by children in their daily lives.

We put these rights into law and then find ourselves in a situation like we see with the assessment of need system. What seems like such a simple thing to deliver within six months is not being delivered and we are now costing the taxpayer a lot of money through cases being taken against the State and by sending people across the Border to get these assessments. If we take the right to housing for children as an example, what is that right to housing specifically? We are in the midst of a housing crisis and we will not be able to fulfil that right, so how do we avoid the taxpayer's money being spent on cases against the State and all those types of things while fulfilling the children's right to housing?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

It is important to say that when we talk about children having a right to housing, there is nowhere in the world where that exists where it translates to an individual right that everyone immediately has access to a house there and then because where there are shortages of housing that is quite simply not an attainable situation.

There is a very interesting experience of this in the South African context where the constitution guarantees a right to housing for adults and children, but of course they have huge issues around informal housing in townships and inadequate conditions and an enormous shortfall in supply meeting demand. What they do is they say that to say somebody has a right to housing does not mean he or she immediately has a right to have a house and a roof over his or her head. What we say is that where Government policy fails to make reasonable steps towards progressive realisation of that right, the possibility exists at that point of a court intervening to say that there is this policy, it is not working, and now the Government needs to go back, reconsider and take a different approach because the approach the Government has been taking is not adequately achieving implementation of that right. It is not a magic wand. It does not solve every case there and then, but it can nudge things onto a different course where the course that is being pursued has been shown not to be an effective one.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I would add that, with incorporation of the convention, we would see a shift in the prioritisation around housing that recognised the holistic needs of a child and the integral nature of housing to a child's development. That approach should be changing the way in which we frame our housing policy. This relates to having a high-level recognition of the right, and the implementation of that through policy, that recognises children's holistic rights and takes account of the integral nature of housing to children's rights, not just as a right to housing, but also all of the rights that then flow from that for children in terms of education, development, healthcare and all of the other things that we know are important for children's healthy development. It would be shifting that emphasis into a more rights-based, child-centred approach to housing.

I will ask a few questions before we commence a second round. I will start with Professor Kilkelly. I cannot remember the exact sentence she used, but she talked about child rights impact assessments and how they could shape legislation. We heard a lot about that last week from the delegations from Scotland and Sweden. Does she have concrete examples of legislation passed in recent years that was not subjected to child rights impact assessments to the level they would have been were they fully incorporated? Does she have any examples of where that might have influenced current legislation and does she believe that we should go back and do some child rights impact evaluations on recent legislation? I know I have asked a very technical question.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

It is a very big question on whether a comprehensive review is required. I would point out that the importance of impact assessment in terms of housing allows us to think what a measure actually means from a children's rights perspective and from a convention perspective, looking at the broader range of rights that are impacted when dealing with specific issues like housing, which might not be seen as only focused on children. There are a whole range of elements. It is bringing that child-centred decision-making process and asking the child question, asking the child rights question, with every piece of legislation, not just those legislative measures that impact directly or obviously on children like the layers of child and family law. Equally, we have colleagues in the school of law working on environmental rights for children and children's access to justice in the climate context. There are a whole range of areas where asking the question of the convention would prompt a reconsideration of how legislation was framed.

Then there are areas where specific provisions should be inserted into law, not just at particular parts of the legislation, but as overarching principles. Regarding the Children Act, for example, it is a fairly robust piece of legislation in dealing with children in conflict with the law, we have very specific provisions that address children's rights that are very much drawn from and influenced by the convention but we do not have a set of overarching principles in the law that says that these are the convention or the rights principles that should inform how children are treated when they come into conflict with the law. It is stepping back and asking those bigger questions in addition to looking at where better provisions might strengthen children's rights in individual cases.

I thank Professor Kilkelly. If the others do not want to come in, I will move on to my next question.

This has probably been covered a little bit, as we have talked a lot about Article 42A. In Professor O'Mahony’s briefing and opening statement, he talked about shortfalls, limitations, modest improvements, lost opportunities and how incorporation could remedy those. Professor Kilkelly said that, at a fast pace, incorporation could happen in three years. Can we wait even three or five years or are amendments to legislation needed now, given that Article 42A is so limited?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

If we were to look at the question of whether amendments are needed to existing legislation, there are all sorts of things on the Statute Book that interact with children's rights in different ways. Work has been done in which Professor Kilkelly has been involved that is with the Department of children at the moment. It is attempting to provide a comprehensive overview of the current state of the Statute Book vis-à-vis children's rights. No doubt there will be plenty in that to be considered and acted upon. On where the Convention on the Rights of the Child fits in that, that is already being done in a context where we have not incorporated and we are auditing the Statute Book, as it were, to see where we are compatible with the convention and where we are not.

On incorporation and the pace of change, that could heighten the onus to progress the work by making it an obligation of national law as well as simply part of our international obligations. On the question of how quickly we need to do that, whatever we do in respect of incorporation, it is important - notwithstanding the fact that I have often been critical of the pace of change in this area - that we not rush on this particular issue. Whatever we choose to do, it is a very important opportunity. At the moment, serious consideration is being given to the question of incorporation for the first time. We have not got to this level of detailed consideration before, so there is an opportunity to do something very important and meaningful. It is important that we take that opportunity and come to a view as to what is the best model for Ireland and the best timetable in which we implement that. It would be a shame if we were to rush to do something just for the sake of doing something. If we were to take a little bit longer to do something that ultimately would be more effective, that would be my preference. We are playing a bit of a long game, going back to how there is no panacea or magic wand that will fix all the problems at once. This is an iterative process. It takes time, so proceeding cautiously and deliberately is the right approach

I have one minute left, so I might move to Dr. Parkes. She mentioned in her opening statement that Ireland still had a way to go in terms of being the Ireland we aspire to be. What are the most significant gaps between the Ireland we have now and the Ireland we aspire to be for children? That is a big question for 40 seconds.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

We have to look at this in the round - not only in terms of the question of incorporation from a legal perspective, but also from the ground up. We have already committed to implementing children's rights in Ireland. We have done since the early 1990s. Part of what the convention requires under Article 42A is that we educate society about children's rights and raise awareness about them. Even children in school today need to be educated about their rights, not just at school level but from the ground up.

It is about all the things we have talked about in terms of incorporation and looking at the areas where the gaps lie. Cultural change is extremely important, too.

Ghlac an Teachta Aisling Dempsey an Chathaoir.
Deputy Aisling Dempsey took the Chair.

Deputy Dempsey used the example of children's housing.

The witnesses came back with the South African example, which was also spoken about last week. It is the idea that you are checking against the legislation's impact. While you might not have individual solutions, it is a case of having a plan and an element of movement towards that. I like the idea that if the UNCRC were incorporated properly into Irish law, that would lead, to put it in a very simplistic way, to proper checking that would ensure that we would be making the attempts which need to be made from the point of view of upholding the range children's rights in respect of housing, child protection, etc. I accept that we are not going to deliver a utopia overnight or in a two-week period. If we start out with the right questions, however, we have a better chance of getting the right answers.

Professor O'Mahony said that with Article 42A, the courts were meant to add pieces to it. That has not necessarily happened and, as a result, we have a big gap when it comes to needs to be done. Professor O'Mahony spoke about not rushing it though and highlighted that it must be effective. It being effective means that what I spoke about earlier must happen. That is what we are talking about. It is a system for - and I know this is very simplistic - checking in order that we look at matters from the point of view of how we vindicate children's rights in the context of everything that is done by every Department and that there is a child impact assessment at the end. It is that entire framework. What other pieces do we need to put in place to ensure that this happens? We review the legislation, we have a commissioner and we have an awful lot of what Professor O'Mahony spoke about. However, we also have a system where despite the fact that many pieces work, there are others which do not. That brings us back to the problem of under-resourcing.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

Again, this raises the question of what form of incorporation we go for. We mentioned the various possible mechanisms. If we are talking about children's rights impact assessments and those happening within Departments and State agencies, that is one thing. That can happen, and it looks quite different from something like, for example, having a legal duty to have regard to the convention. That is one version. A legal duty to interpret domestic law in a way that is compatible with the convention is another. Creating a call to action that somebody could take against a Department or a State agency in the event of a failure to vindicate children's rights is yet another version. There are so many different ways in which to go about this. How much value it would add and what that would look like really depends on the choices you make in that regard.

Professor O'Mahony does not have any sort of preference.

Ghlac an Teachta Keira Keogh an Chathaoir arís.
Deputy Keira Keogh resumed the Chair.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

On the one hand, there is the question of what, in principle, would be useful in the abstract. Allowing the CRC to be used in a direct way in Irish courts has a lot of appeal for somebody like me who is an academic specialising in constitutional law and children's rights. I like that idea a lot. How well it would work within the Irish system, given that it would be a rather new departure, is separate question. If we look at what we have already and what we might build on, we have the example of what we have done with the European Convention on Human Rights. The European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003 does two things, namely obliging domestic courts to interpret domestic laws in a manner compatible with the conventions wherever possible and allowing people to take actions against public bodies which fail to deliver on their obligations under the convention. That is something we already have in Irish law and it does two specific things in respect of the European Convention on Human Rights. Could we do something like that with the CRC? We could, particularly as we did it with the European Convention on Human Rights and it has worked up to a point.

There is probably some untapped potential there, but it has not caused huge problems within our legal system. That is one model to which we could look and which would be very achievable. There are stronger models that I like on an academic level, but I understand that they would pose broader questions for the legal system.

There may be fear in relation to employing them.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

Potentially, yes, because whenever we do something new, there is always an element of trepidation around that.

I am just going to throw out some general questions. Whoever wants to catch the ball can fire away. What are the main legal or political obstacles preventing Ireland from progressing towards incorporating the CRC in domestic law? What is a realistic timeframe for that to happen?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

I thank the Senator for the questions. I go back to the point I just made to the effect that whenever we do something new, there is always a degree of trepidation. If you look at the main suite of UN human rights conventions, of which the CRC is one, you can see that we have not incorporated any of them. One barrier is the idea that if we were to do this for the CRC, it would be the first time that we have incorporated a UN human rights convention and that would lead to some anxiety about what that might mean and what the ripple effects might be. That is one element, and that is why I would be keen to again highlight the fact that while we may not have done it for any of the UN conventions, we have done it for the European Convention on Human Rights in one particular way. It certainly would not be the first time that we have incorporated a human rights convention, per se; it would just be the first time we would have done it for one of the suite of UN global conventions. It would not be an entirely novel thing for us to go down this route. It is not something that is necessarily going to have all sorts of scary, unintended consequences that people sometimes worry about when we are seen to be doing something new. It is one reality,. It is important to mention that this would be the first time for one of the UN conventions to be incorporated and that this would cause people to ask why incorporate it and not the other ones. In other words, if we incorporate the CRC, does that mean we should also incorporate the others? It raises those sorts of knock-on questions.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

I might just throw a spanner in the works and raise one of the potential legal issues. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child was drafted in the 1980s. It is quite outdated and does not necessarily cover all of the children's rights that we really need protection for today. For example, when it was drafted, there was none of this online safety business. We did not have the internet, mobile phones or any of those things. Since the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, other international treaties, to link to what Professor O'Mahony has said, have been drafted and ratified and technically we should be ensuring that we are protecting the children's rights elements of those conventions while we are incorporating. They would probably be a little more up to date. If refer, for example, to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and other conventions in relation to refugees and similar areas. That would have to be looked at in the round, from a legal perspective.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

We could probably point to a long list of financial, budgetary and related obstacles to convention incorporation. The most significant matter that would need to be addressed, which is part of what I would see as an obstacle, is the paternalism that prevails fairly widely in society and in our decision making about how ready we are to see children as rights holders. An example of that is how comfortable we are with the best interests principle, the requirement that what we do and the decisions that we make should be in the best interests of children. I do not think anyone has a difficulty with that.

However, that is very different from recognising that children, as individual rights holders in their own right, have a whole range of rights that the State has a duty to vindicate. Article 12 provides a very good example of the challenges that can be presented. Whether in education, healthcare or other areas, children really struggle to be seen as individuals in their own right. That is something we need to take very seriously. Of course, this is not unique to Ireland. In fact, there is growing concern internationally about a backlash against children's rights. We need to be alert to those issues.

Dr. Parkes said that she feels one of the most significant changes in the area - I presume she means the area of children's rights - has been cultural. If the convention has not been the catalyst for that, what has?

Dr. Aisling Parkes

I think it does all go back to the convention. All of the changes we have made within our legal framework concerning children have been influenced by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. For example, our partial incorporation of the convention through Article 42A of the Constitution led to a number of political and legislative changes. These changes all come from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I misinterpreted Dr. Parkes's comment. She thinks that the changes that have arisen in that time with regard to the rights of children have been cultural rather than legislative or regulatory.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

Changes have come from the UN convention and these have prompted changes in the culture, if that makes sense. Some 20-odd years ago, when I was talking about Article 12 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and children's right to be heard in legal cases, it was really difficult to get the message across that Article 12 specifies that children who are capable of forming views have the right to have those views heard. Among the various professions, the question that was inevitably raised was how you could listen to very young children. There was a view that they did not know what they were talking about. If we look at society now and at the changes within the professions, including the legal and social professions, that question is no longer asked. To some extent, it is accepted that all children are capable of forming views and that those views have to be considered in accordance with their age and maturity, which is what the Constitution requires. That change was a legal change but it has influenced the culture.

Another aspect of Dr. Parkes's opening statement that stands out relates to our ability to disregard or ignore the calls of the UN committee for full incorporation. Am I right in saying the committee is only seeking implementation? The convention itself only seeks to be implemented rather than to be incorporated.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

That is correct, yes.

When the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child contacts the Irish Government, its advice is to implement the convention.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

Yes, if you look at-----

We have managed to-----

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

The committee has gone beyond what Article 4 technically requires, which is legal implementation. On numerous occasions, the committee has gone beyond that to recommend incorporation. That is based on the wealth of experience the committee has and on having seen the link between incorporation and implementation of the convention.

Despite the efforts the committee has made to suggest to Irish governments of different eras to do this, no government has undertaken full incorporation. On a different point, although it may be parallel, does that give us an indication of how meaningless the UN has become?

Dr. Aisling Parkes

That is a very loaded question. We must recognise that those comments from the committee come after consideration of state party reports. These reports detail all the changes that Ireland has made to update and review its laws to align them with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. My opening statement highlighted what the committee has recommended that Ireland do but I did not have the time or the scope to highlight within the statement the actions Ireland has taken in that space that the committee has welcomed and recognised.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

Part of what Deputy Connolly has touched on there is the fact that our current arrangement, where we have ratified the convention but not incorporated it, sets up the possibility that essentially the enforcement mechanism consists of recommendations made by the committee in our continuing observations in our periodic reports and it is not a legally binding thing, meaning if we ignore it, all that happens is one gets another recommendation the next time. Incorporation tries to push beyond that by saying it becomes something which is binding as a matter of domestic law and not something to which the Government can simply say, "Sorry, we do not want to do that right now".

I cannot remember which of the opening statements noted the advances made by our nearest neighbours. That is Scotland, I assume.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Yes. Northern Ireland is also having this debate, as I am sure the committee will be aware.

Yes. Which country has the most similar legislative apparatus, which would allow us to look at how it did this and say that it mirrors our system?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

In truth, few common law countries have done this. Scotland did something of a hybrid in that respect. We can look at Norway and Sweden as examples of countries that have taken full incorporation recently. Iceland has also done that. These are all countries that looked at this, decided against it and then looked at it again. That is an interesting lesson.

Did they adopt the convention around the same time as we did?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Yes. Ireland was very early to this. It is fair to say that in light of all the measures that I identified - the Ombudsman for Children, the national strategy, the dedicated Ministry and the legislative review - have been recommendations of the committee. They have all come about because they were prompted by the committee. Ireland has been very diligent in responding to committee recommendations in the past. That is an example for us and we should use that momentum. Ireland cares deeply about its reputation in this area, in my experience, and it has a role to play internationally in being one of the number of countries that have taken this important step.

I had the same question as Deputy Connolly on which countries had adopted the convention, and Professor Kilkelly answered that. We talked about Scotland and Norway in the committee last week. Which of our European peer countries have not adopted it?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

Australia is one country that is very similar, albeit with a federal system, that has decided against it. It reviewed recently its intent, had a consultation on it and decided against it. New Zealand equally has not incorporated it. I would consider both of those countries broadly similar to Ireland for a couple of reasons. One is that they have done an amount to give certain provisions of the convention the effect of law. They have commissioners for children and have motivated in some way around the convention's standards but they have fallen considerably short, even compared with Ireland, in taking steps to give legal effect to the convention. Certainly, incorporation is not on the agenda in either of those countries. Canada would be similar also. Those common law countries that broadly speaking would be equivalent to Ireland in legal terms have chosen not to go down this route. That is an interesting part of the international experience.

What rationale have they given, broadly, for that choice?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

In most cases they have looked at a suite of conventions, so the question was whether they would adopt and incorporate all of the human rights treaties. For example, that was the case in Australia. They looked at all of the treaties and decided they were not required. In most cases they consider their performance from a legislative compliance perspective. In terms of how compliant their law is with the convention, they consider that to be adequate. We have written extensively on why we believe that is not the case. In fact, academics in Australia and New Zealand are very engaged in reviewing laws against the convention and, obviously, civil society is very active as well. It is a long road and I think they are on that journey to some extent, but it is very difficult.

I have two more questions. On the child's right to be heard, we are doing a good job to some extent in terms of the youth advisory panels we have in various organisations, including a couple of the Departments.

It was very interesting last week to hear from the former commissioner in Scotland, Bruce Adamson, around some of the work that he and organisations over there undertook regarding the voices of very young children, such as colouring. I have a background in disability. I worked with a lot of non-verbal children. What are the witnesses’ views on whether we are doing enough? Should we be doing more? How should we be doing it in terms of the very young voices or the disabled voices?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I will make an introductory remark. Ireland is, in fact, a leader in this space internationally. We adopted the first national strategy on the participation of children in decision-making a number of years ago coming out of our 2000 national children's strategy, the first goal of which was that children have a right to be heard. There is a long-standing track record in Ireland in this area and the areas that the Cathaoirleach described. Where we find it difficult is perhaps in court processes and so on. That is a different matter. There is work happening under our guardian ad litem reforms which we hope will point to more progress.

We have adopted the Lundy model, which was developed by our UCC colleague, Professor Laura Lundy. The work she has led across government, working with education, Tusla, healthcare and so on, has been transformative in lots of ways. There is a huge groundswell of support for that work. Internationally, we are very highly regarded for the work we do in this area, including with young children, children with disabilities and children in other vulnerable settings where we have shown that it can and should be done. That is an area in which we should be very proud. It sits outside the legal process, to some extent. However, in terms of policy development, it is a critical part of what Ireland has achieved. We need to learn from that as to what works in terms of policymaking and embedding that in a whole-of-government approach.

Do any of the other witnesses wish to come in on that or will I move on?

Dr. Aisling Parkes

In relation to the younger children, there has been a lot of research done in the courts space in particular on children from the ages of zero to two or zero to five. The research states that children in those categories are not heard directly, nor are there any mechanisms that exist to support them in that space. There has been lots of research done around the different methodologies of getting young children to engage. Certainly, within other spaces, social professionals and other professionals would very much engage with the creative methodologies, such as play and art, to facilitate children having a voice using the Lundy model and other models of child participation. I absolutely echo what Professor Kilkelly has said in that respect. We are very active in this space. We recognise it within our policy even though it is only recognised to a very limited extent within our highest source of law.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

To add to that in the court context, there are two things that I will briefly highlight. One is that there can be inconsistency around the practice of different judges. Some judges will have a minimum age in their head below which they tend not to invite the views of the child. That age can vary. For some judges it might be as low as five, but for other judges it might be as high as ten or 12. That is something that our reforms, which are currently going through in relation to the establishment of specialist family courts with specially trained judges and so on, will hopefully bring more consistency in that space.

The other point is that there are certain categories of experts that we tend not to use so much in this country. We have particular experts that we use to represent the child's view, whether that is the guardian ad litem in child protection cases or other categories of experts in family law cases. In other jurisdictions, there has been fantastic success with specially trained intermediaries who specialise in facilitating very young children and communicating their views. They can do so with children as young as two or three. They can get incredibly important information before the court that will allow the court to make a better decision. That is expertise that we would ideally be tapping into more within our systems.

It is often an area that needs to develop a relationship. I think of my niece who is only just gone two and is very adept at expressing her opinion. Recently there was a fright because there was a motorbike in the distance and she was not sure what it was. I asked her if she got a fright in her heart and she said "no, I got a fright in my tummy." As a two-year-old, she could express herself to that level. To get their opinions, though, there often needs to be relationship-building and the guardians ad litem are a real part of that. I presume Deputy Ó Murchú would like to come in on a second round.

You are correct in your assumption, a Chathaoirligh. When Professor O'Mahony was talking about those intermediaries, was he referring to all interactions? Is this courts, kids who may have had dealing with the Garda and generally within the criminal justice system, or across the board?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

I have come across this particularly in the court context. It was in respect of allowing children to provide evidence to courts in the context of criminal cases involving child sex abuse. That is where it was used. We have to acknowledge that courts have resource implications for things like this. Is it practical to have an intermediary available to every child to express their views in every context?

Professor Conor O'Mahony

No, it is probably not. Might it have potentially useful applications outside of a court context? It might. Healthcare would be an obvious example that springs to mind. If someone is trying to make an important decision around medical treatment for a very young child, an intermediary might have a very useful role to play in that context. It is a balance. It is not realistic to say we are always going to have access to that kind of expertise, but nor do I think it is a good thing to say that we are never going to use it, because it can unlock that right for very young children.

I get it. Professor O'Mahony is talking about very major situations where decisions have to be made, or where there are incredibly serious consequences to what needs to be dealt with. We need to make sure we have the capacity for a person who can be the intermediary. There is a wider issue outside of children in respect of engagement with those who are non-verbal, where I think there is a fall-down anyway. In general terms, we get the idea; the UNCRC is to provide leverage and keeps everyone honest, for want of a better term. It is introducing that but it is making sure a framework exists that works. I can see how intermediaries like that would work. At times, we create bureaucracies and systems that work against each other in the attempt to deal with issues. I am absolutely shocked that Professor O'Mahony said judges can be inconsistent. I suppose there can be inconsistency in the application of the law across the board.

Sometimes when we talk about something that looks innately good, I almost have a fear. This is my single transferable speech. I will use the example of mental health. The State started out putting too many people away, probably on the word of any fella who had a suit. We had institutions filled and we know all that went wrong in that regard. Now we do not have the resources or the beds for those who need them anyway. That is one thing. Also, at times, we have guidelines that probably are not correct, possibly due to a bad reading of the Mental Health Act, whether we are talking about gardaí, authorised officers, or GPs in particular. The idea of having a human rights ethos is right, but in some cases a human rights ethos is created which makes it incredibly difficult to deal with a person, for example, who does not believe themselves to be sick but who is very sick, who is not an imminent danger to themselves but who is a danger to themselves and others. I am using this more as an analogy but if the witnesses want to answer on it specifically, I have no difficulty with that. Again, it is a problem and a fear I have around laws. I know I am coming from left-field in relation to this. If someone is brave enough to take that on, I will be forever in their debt. I do not want to get into the specifics of it but it is about that fear of introducing laws that can then work against somebody. That is all I mean. I suppose it is do with evaluation of legislation.

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

There is work to be done on the interplay between existing domestic law and an active incorporation. It is really important to try to understand how they interact when we do not have sufficient practice knowledge from incorporation in the countries we have talked about to allow us to understand what happens to that law, which, despite a review, now appears to be in contradiction with the convention or which is not quite in compliance with it. That is what is not yet clear. What happens to the Statute Book when you have an Act that incorporates the convention? That needs a mechanism of regular review in order to ensure that there are regular amendments to and updating of legislation on a continual basis to bring-----

I think Professor Kilkelly got it. Sometimes, it is not the legislation or the ethos; sometimes, it is the application. Other times it is the fact that people have not been trained specifically and are still operating under what they believe to be the law and the rules, when that is not necessarily the case. There should be a review from the point of view of making sure that if there is a legislative flaw, it will be caught.

I call Deputy John Connolly.

I am content. I thank the Cathaoirleach. I enjoyed this; it has been a good session.

Does Deputy Dempsey wish to comment?

I am the same. It has been a great session. I thank the witnesses.

I will ask one final question in order to ensure that I am competing with my guide over there. I am joking. I am not fully clear on where the witnesses stand individually regarding the recommendation. We have had other witnesses who have come in and been clear on their wish for us to fully and directly incorporate the UNCRC. Do our guests have a preference on whether we should go full and direct or whether we should opt for indirect and phased?

Professor Ursula Kilkelly

I have made it clear, particularly through other work I have done, that full direct incorporation is the best way to ensure that the convention is implemented in a way that will ensure children's rights are vindicated and that they experience the impact of convention in their day-to-day lives. From all of the research we have done, there is no question about that being the case. The rest is the complexity of time, scope and scale and all that flows from those, but that is certainly my view.

Dr. Aisling Parkes

Anything in life that is worthwhile can be challenging but is definitely worth doing. I agree that direct and full incorporation is definitely the way to go.

Professor Conor O'Mahony

In broad terms, I agree. The one caveat I would throw in is that in preparing for today, I took the time to review some of the literature in this space. Even as an academic specialising in the area, I find myself confused at times by the way people use the terminology. When you take the term "direct incorporation", you find that different scholars and authors use it differently at times. Rather than saying I have a preference for direct, indirect, sectoral or any of those terms because of the fact that various people use them differently, I would more practically ask about what would I like to see us being able to do following incorporation. I certainly would like to have a version of incorporation that would allow people to pursue remedies against public bodies that fail to comply with children rights. That would add something substantive to our system. It would also create a catalyst or incentive for greater compliance if there was a knowledge on the part of public bodies that such actions could be taken.

I would like to see something in our law that would require our courts to interpret national laws in a manner compatible with the convention as far as they possibly can. I would like to see something that would explicitly require the Houses of the Oireachtas and State agencies to have regard to serious obligations in their work in enacting legislation and formulating and implementing policy. Those are the key tools that would help to move the dial on children's rights. Whatever label you attach to it, whether you call that full and direct, indirect or some hybrid of both, I am not so concerned about, but those are the practical things I would like to see in place.

This has been a very informative session. I thank all the witnesses for coming in. I particularly thank them for the briefing notes and literature they provided to members for extra reading. We will certainly be busy. The meeting of the joint committee now stands adjourned until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 8 October, when we will be hearing the voices of children.

Cuireadhancomhchoistearathlóar11.20 a.m. go dtí 10 a.m., Déardaoin, an 8 October 2026.
The joint committee adjourned at 11.20 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 8 October 2026.
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