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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 2025

Vol. 1077 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Health Services Staff

As the Minister of State is well aware, a very small number of staff who worked within the HSE and the medical services during a very difficult time, when Covid was there - 159, I understand - have long Covid. They are getting support from the HSE, but from 31 December of this year, that support will stop. I ask that serious consideration be given to putting in place a mechanism to give these people the support they need. They were the front-line workers. I have one letter here from a lady who wrote to the health committee - for today's meeting, in fact - and she set out that 40 staff members where she was working got Covid. She is now long term affected by Covid. It is clear that there have been a number of decisions internationally whereby recognition has been given to long Covid as an occupational illness. It is not treated as an occupational illness here and it needs to be. A new ILO convention, No. 192, requires benefits and protections for workers who become ill from occupational exposure to biological hazards. There is a European Commission recommendation to recognise Covid-19 as an occupational disease for healthcare and front-line workers. In addition, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has clearly set out its position.

These are front-line workers who gave everything to the system through a very difficult time, and we are now saying, "Not our problem", and that they should go onto a social welfare scheme, even though a lot of them have mortgages and young families. They are finding it difficult to accept this. It is time we stepped up to the line and gave the necessary support.

It should be remembered that if you are self-employed or privately employed, a lot of companies have illness packages in place in order that if you were to suffer an injury at work, that support scheme would remain in place until such time as you were able to go back to work. That does not apply in relation to the HSE. Yes, it applies for a period, but not after a three-month period. It was extended here in relation to Covid. I think it should be continued after 31 December because these are people who helped and supported patients who had Covid. They had to work through very difficult times providing healthcare to a large percentage of the population when everyone else was required to stay at home, including from schools, which were closed at this time. Yet they still went out to work, took the risks and provided the care. Now they find the State saying, "Sorry, not our problem. We have given as much support as we can but we are not prepared to continue with that support after 31 December."

A mechanism should be put in place for this exceptional circumstance. We always need to change the law. We always need to make sure we can adequately provide for those who have given their all to the system, especially the health system. I ask for the change to be made and for them to be given the necessary support.

I thank the Deputy for bringing this to the House and raising such an important matter. It gives me the opportunity to acknowledge the extraordinary role our healthcare workers played during the pandemic. They went far beyond the call of duty, working on the front line, treating Covid-positive patients and doing so in those early days when the protections we now take for granted were not yet in place. Their courage and commitment can never be forgotten.

In July 2022, a special scheme was introduced to provide support to eligible public health staff who developed long Covid. This was a temporary, exceptional measure, unique to the health sector, designed to acknowledge the risks faced by staff working in high-exposure environments before PPE, vaccination and widespread community transmission were established.

As I understand, there are approximately 159 employees - the Deputy is right; that is the figure we have also been given - still on this scheme. Most of these staff have been supported with full pay for almost five years. The Department has consistently worked to ensure that these staff were looked after. At our request, the Department of public expenditure agreed to extend the scheme several times since its introduction.

Following a Labour Court hearing in June of this year, a final extension was recommended. The scheme will now run, as the Deputy said, until 31 December 2025, when it will formally conclude.

I want to be very clear: the conclusion of this scheme does not mean that supports will end. Staff who remain unfit to work will transition seamlessly into the public service sick leave scheme, ensuring continuity of care and financial protection.

Under that scheme, staff will receive full pay for three months, followed by half pay for three months. They will then have the option to apply for temporary rehabilitative remuneration, which can provide up to a further 547 days of paid leave. In addition, the critical illness protocol may provide supports for up to three years.

Beyond financial supports, staff will also be entitled to reasonable accommodations to assist them in returning to work. This may include modified duties or adjusted work patterns while they are rehabilitating. These measures are designed to ensure that staff are supported not only financially but also practically as they recover and reintegrate into the workplace.

While some EU countries recognised Covid-19 as an occupational illness, this applied to Covid-19 itself, not long Covid. To our knowledge, no country provided sustained full pay for long Covid similar to Ireland's special scheme.

The Minister for Social Protection has reviewed the EU recommendation on recognising Covid-19 as an occupational illness. It has been determined that Covid-19 does not meet the criteria required for recognition under the Social Welfare Acts.

I assure the Deputy and the House that while the special scheme will conclude at the end of this year, the supports available to staff will continue under established public service arrangements.

I know that was part of what the Deputy had been looking for as well. I can assure him that we are very mindful of this and every help will be provided there.

For clarification, is the Minister of State saying that in respect of the 159 people getting supports, from 31 December they will be entitled to get pay for a further three months and half pay thereafter? She is. The issue still arises whereby there are occupational illnesses but we have not put long Covid under those criteria. We need to do so because it is something new and we always need to amend definitions as changes arise. This has been a fundamental change.

I will give the Minister of State an example in relation to a member of my own family who got Covid and works as a geriatric psychiatric nurse. She was lucky she had a full recovery. When she went back to work, ten of the patients she had been working with had died in the two weeks she was off as a result of having Covid. That is the kind of difficulty that staff faced. It is not just about suffering the illness, but also about the trauma of dealing with the difficulties during that period. We need to take that into account as well.

I maintain that we should put a scheme in place, because we are talking about a very small number of workers, to give them the support. A lot of nursing staff, doctors and care assistants have young families and mortgages to pay. The insurance companies, where they may have mortgage protection, are not prepared to cover them. Those are the difficulties that some people I have come across have had to deal with. I know the Government seems to have made a decision on this, but I ask that this be reviewed and that we see what further mechanisms can be put in place to support these workers.

I will go back to the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, with the Deputy's concerns. It is so important that we acknowledge the extraordinary services of healthcare workers during the pandemic. They did a marvellous job and their work was incredible. They would have seen people dying during their work and, as the Deputy said, that probably has affected them. It is important that we work together on this. I will certainly raise the Deputy's issues.

As I said, the scheme is concluding on 31 December 2025, but I assure the Deputy that staff will not be left without support. They will transition into the public service sick leave scheme, with full access to supports that include temporary rehabilitation, remuneration and critical illness protocol. It is important to thank the healthcare services for the work they did over Covid. As I said, I will definitely go back to the Minister with the issues the Deputy raised and we will see what we can do from there.

Disability Services

I am anxious to get to the root of the numbers of respite beds not only available but also those required to bring us to a position whereby all families can avail of this vital service monthly. Respite is an extremely vital service and a survival requirement for many families, carers and patients. When dealing with patients with special needs, many carers and loved ones have to be available 24 hours a day to attend to all the needs of their charges. Respite gives all involved an opportunity to recharge the batteries with a change of pace. Even going to the shops without worrying about the patient will release tensions, both physical and mental.

People caring for patients with special needs are well entitled to a monthly break as a basic human right. All of us have set hours in our week, even our fantastic front-line healthcare staff, but many who care for special needs patients advise that it has been many months since they have had an overnight break to allow them to massage their brains and relieve all their built-up stress and pressure. Caring for special needs patients is a full-time job in the real sense of the word, in many cases entailing doing and supporting all functions for them, including the most basic. The cost to the Department of Health to provide once-monthly respite to all those qualifying would be negligible in comparison with the cost if these carers were not willing and able to act in lieu of the State, saving costs of hundreds of additional qualified staff and a vastly increased number of full-time residences for a large percentage of these patients.

The number of respite beds available for patients with special needs for use by six- to 18-year-olds in Kerry confirmed to me recently by the HSE is eight on seven nights a week, split evenly between north and south Kerry. The number of respite beds available for patients with special needs for use by those over the age of 18 is ten on seven nights a week and five on three nights a week. It would be extremely helpful if we could know the numbers of families that this level of respite beds are caring for, the average regularity of this care offered to any family and the total number of respite beds required to be in place in Kerry to give every family a monthly break.

In parts of Kerry, particularly the peninsula of Corca Dhuibhne, Dingle, and west Kerry and Uíbh Ráthach, Iveragh, and south Kerry, there are difficulties in attracting suitably qualified staff to operate these respite beds. That is a huge problem. I believe we should now also consider offering added incentives to potential employees to come and work in these lesser populated areas away from the bright lights and also for those who might be persuaded to return home from abroad if circumstances suited. We can also accept that different patients have different requirements, but these are already being cared for, mainly by family members, who in the vast majority of cases have no training or qualification in this field whatsoever.

I thank those staff who operate respite beds in Kerry and the companies that administer them, such as St. John of God's, Orchard Care, T1 Healthcare and the Kerry Parents and Friends Association. Fantastic facilities are being operated in Kerry at Whitefield, Beaufort on the campus of St. Joseph's Special School by St. John of God's. I urge the Minister to use this already owned property and buildings to further develop respite places for the families of Kerry in this wonderful setting, generously donated for a specific purpose by the Doyle family of Beaufort.

I thank the Deputy. The Minister thanks Deputy Cahill for raising this important issue and for offering her the opportunity to respond. Respite is a vital support for families and service users and potentially helps prevent out-of-home full-time residential placements, preserves the family unit and supports family stability. In regard to respite services within Kerry, the situation is as follows. HSE South West has made significant additional investment in respite provision in recent years. In 2024, regional health area HSE South West, which extends to the Cork and Kerry area, provided 17,181 respite overnights and 2,833 day-only respite sessions and supported 760 people with a disability.

The type and quantum of respite have been increased each year to meet the assessed needs and preferences of as many people as possible. HSE South West disability services provide a range of respite models for children and adults. These include residential overnight respite centres, after-school clubs for children and young people, in-home respite support for children and adults, outreach day respite supports and holiday breaks for adults. These options ensure that respite is provided in the manner that best meets the needs of people and their families or carers.

Currently, there are approximately 2,800 respite bed nights for children and 4,200 respite bed nights for adults every year. This is of course subject to some variations according to the needs and compatibility of the adults and children availing of these services.

The HSE advises that the number of people a respite centre can accommodate at any given time is not fixed as it varies according to the complexity of clients’ needs. Within each centre, groupings and occupancy are determined by both client compatibility and the level of support required to ensure safe and appropriate care. Within that context, HSE South West disability services confirm that in County Kerry, there have been no unplanned closures of existing adult respite beds at any point during 2025. HSE South West disability services are unable to provide a definitive number of respite beds required in Kerry as the allocation of respite beds is based on a number of different factors, although it is accepted that demand is high. In Kerry, there have been two recent developments in respite provision, one for adults and one for children. The adult north Kerry respite house has been allocated additional funding to enable the service to operate on a full-time basis, seven days a week, to ensure the service is utilised to its full capacity. Additionally, several families have been provided with bespoke respite arrangements to support them in response to specific challenges. In terms of future developments, the HSE is progressing on property purchases for respite and residential services in the Tralee area. Additionally, proposals to the capital plan 2026 have been made by HSE South West disability services to fund a number of new-build residential and respite units.

I thank the Minister of State. We have to do more. These families in Kerry are suffering every single day of the week because of the chronic lack of respite for both children and adults with profound disabilities. They have been let down by the State. We have to help them and if we do not, we are all failures. Obviously, I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach has made disabilities a priority for this Government, and rightly so. The bottom line is that we have to deliver an adequate number of residential respite beds for all the children and adults with disabilities and their families in County Kerry and throughout the country. It is a priority for the Government and the Minister of State is in a position to deliver this. She might speak to my party colleague the Minister for children and disabilities, Deputy Foley, who is well aware of the problem. I have met people on a number of occasions individually and collectively, particularly the mothers. Their stories are harrowing. It is just not fair. What is happening is illegal. It is criminal. They are at the end of their tether. It is 24-7. They do not get a wink of sleep and a lot of them cannot get respite for five, six or seven months. That is a huge crime and we should be embarrassed about it. I am begging the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Government to make sure that an adequate number of respite beds is provided both for under-18s and over-18s. It is something I made a priority when I was elected to Dáil Éireann on the night of 1 December at 10 o'clock. It is hugely important to me. We have many problems with our health service, but this is an area with chronic issues.

We need to help them. There is a fabulous facility at St. Mary of the Angels in Beaufort. There is already residential care there. There is St. Francis Special School there. There are a lot of facilities. There is a special swimming pool there.

If I can finish, the land was donated by the Doyle family many years ago for children with special needs and it should continue to serve that purpose.

Deputy, you are 30 seconds over time.

I am begging. I will keep hammering this. I am a member of the health committee.

I will be raising it again down there shortly and in the disability committee.

Deputy, please, your time is up, and you are delaying other people who have questions.

I am begging the Government and the Minister, my own party colleague, to act here, please.

I can see and hear the passion. The Deputy is right that respite is absolutely crucial for families, whether it is children or adults. I thank him for raising this and can assure him the Government is committed to the continued expansion and development of respite services as set out in the programme for Government and the new National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025-2030. To support the HSE in its work to provide and develop respite services in recognition of the importance of support for disabled people and their families, budget 2026 has provided significant additional funding to support respite service expansion in 2026. I assure the Deputy that this is crucial, and I honestly take what he is saying on board. He can be assured I will be talking to the Minister, as I know Deputy Cahill will be as he is her party colleague. I will ask and find out about the HSE's property purchase for respite. I will check that out for the Deputy and make sure that comes back from the Minister's office. HSE south west has advised it is aware of the importance and value of respite. The HSE's 2026 national service plan will provide greater detail on expected delivery for 2026. That is expected to be published in the coming months. I will keep the Deputy updated and I thank him for highlighting this important issue.

Mental Health Services

I thank the Minister of State and am happy she is here as a resident of Laois. I know she is just inside the border, but she is still in Laois. I raised this back in April 2022. On Holy Thursday of that year, I became aware from a source that there were plans to close Erkina House in Rathdowney. Erkina House at that time had 12 residents and €120,000 had just been spent re-roofing part of the building. There was an almighty campaign to keep it open. The decision to close it was not notified to the Minister at the time, and he confirmed that in writing and here on the floor of the Dáil as well. At the time I predicted that the HSE might sit it out, have a war of attrition and let the numbers dwindle down as people passed on, returned to a ward or a nursing home, or were convinced to go somewhere else. Unfortunately, that seems to be what has happened. A consultant was brought in to meet with residents, families, staff and public representatives and we all participated in this. Views were taken, and the view that came back very strongly supported retention of a facility on the site of Erkina House.

The points in favour were the excellent staff in the facility; that it is on a large site in the centre of Rathdowney town with large gardens behind it - it is the old convent house; that it has easy access to shops and a post office directly across the road; and that there is a cafe, local facilities and the health centre, with the library adjacent to it. All of these were used by some of the residents. One person in it was writing poetry. He was moved the other day. Another person who died very recently had produced wonderful artwork, which I have viewed over the years. There is a regular bus service from Rathdowney. An excuse used by the HSE and the Department of Health at the time was that there was no transport in and out. There is a very good bus service in and out of Rathdowney and that will improve further under the rural link scheme, which is a great scheme. I welcome that.

One of the other great points in favour of the facility was the support and acceptance of the residents by the local community. The residents knew local people, and local people knew them and would chat to them. The residents were familiar with the local people and the surroundings. The HSE and the Department produced an order of merit report on the building, looking at options. Refurbishing and extending it had a projected cost of €5.2 million. Obviously, there was a cost in producing that extensive report. A firm of architects was brought in to do it.

The current situation is that the facility is down to just two residents. This is what I predicted would happen. Some of them have been moved. The HSE and the Department have sat it out. Some residents have moved to a nursing home and some of them have gone to their eternal and just reward. There were a number of meetings with the HSE and various options were discussed. I followed this the whole way along. We were told the preferred option for the HSE was that there would be four of these centres in Laois and Offaly, two in Laois and two in Offaly. There is already Silver Lodge in Tullamore and the one in Borris-in-Ossory. Those are the two in Offaly. In Laois, there is the Maryborough Centre, which was being refurbished at the time. It has been reopened now and is fantastic. There are up to 15 residents in that. That is good, but I pointed out at the time that Rathdowney is ideal because it is at the other end of the county. It provided care for the south of the county.

It already owns the site but what we have had since is pussyfooting or deliberately sitting it out. I do not know which it is but no decision has been made. This is not acceptable. How long does it take for decisions to be made in this country? Ministers really need to catch officials and move things on. I ask the Minister of State what is the truth and what is happening. We need an upfront answer.

I thank the Deputy from my neighbouring county for raising this important matter. It is a key priority for the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, who, unfortunately, cannot take this Topical Issue, and for the Government that people experiencing mental health difficulties receive the appropriate level of care they require in the most suitable location in the community that best meets their needs. Achieving this involves reform of mental health services and developing fit-for-purpose community services that meet people's needs into the future. This is supported by substantial investment in mental health services each year.

Erkina House is operated by the HSE as a fully staffed community mental health residence. The HSE has advised the Department that there are three remaining residents supported at this residence. Erkina House has provided much-needed mental health support to many people over two decades. However, it is not the type of mental health service we would build today and there are documented issues with the configuration of the building as a mental health service. The HSE has been actively engaging in working towards a solution that meets the long-term care needs of the service users remaining at the facility. The HSE has advised the Department of Health that Erkina House would be significantly non-compliant with forthcoming Mental Health Commission community residence standards and a significant level of investment would be required to develop Erkina House to achieve the additional regulatory standards required.

An independent review was commissioned by the chief officer in the HSE Midlands Louth Meath community healthcare organisation in 2022. The review was completed on the basis of a potential move of services to another location in County Offaly. This is no longer an option being considered by the HSE. The review strongly recommended that the views of residents on their future service provision be the focus of decision-making. This person-centred management model has been undertaken by the HSE which indicated that the remaining residents wish to move to other long-term care facilities in their community. The HSE has advised the Department that this property is not suitable for upgrade and adaptation and accordingly no new admissions will be undertaken. The HSE has provided assurance to the Department as to the service provision for the existing residents to properly meet their needs. I will not go over these details as the number of people involved is so small that they could be identifiable. The HSE aims to re-provide this service and provision for community-based high support which will be managed in existing alternative mental health residences located within the integrated healthcare area.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. As of yesterday, my information is it was down to two residents. We have known for three years that the building will not meet standards. The HSE, the Government and the Department know it. In the meantime, HSE management was clear it needed four centres and the ideal size of those centres was to cater for between ten and 15 people because that provides the best model in terms of efficiency, use of resources and best practice for residents. It outlined in great detail why. Where is the fourth centre going to be? We have three in Laois-Offaly. The Department of Health owns this site. There is a building there. I recognise this building needs an upgrade but if there are going to be four centres, surely one should be located in south of the county along with one up towards the north and the centre in the middle of the county, which is in Portlaoise. That is excellent; I welcome that centre. I visited it and it is wonderful what is happening in it. The Minister of State will know that people are being let out of mental health facilities and sent home who really need to be in care. Families contact me about people who are being sent out of the psychiatric unit, brought in for a couple of days and sent out again. Those people need to be in residential care. That is well recognised by medical professionals but there is nowhere to send them. They are not fit to hold down a tenancy in a house or to live in group supported accommodation but in a setting like that, they function. The HSE recognised that at the time so what has happened? The most recent reply I got to a parliamentary question was that no decision has been made regarding the future of Erkina House. We need to get straight answers as to what is happening. I ask the Government to use this resource and opportunity, make decisions and put a facility in place in the south of the county. Utilise the goodwill and staff who are there also.

I thank the Deputy again for bringing this important issue up. I assure the House that I understand, as the Deputy said, how important it is for all persons with mental health difficulties to have the relevant mental health services in place from the HSE in the location that best suits their needs. The Deputy mentioned the four centres and that they should be based in different areas. I will check that out with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. I will also check the site with the HSE. The Deputy said Erkina House is a HSE site. I will also speak to the Minister of State and Department. I assure him someone will come back to him with this information. I note this is a priority for Deputy Butler and I will go back to her with the Deputy's concerns.

School Accommodation

I would like to discuss the need for schools in the Kilternan area of my constituency of Dublin-Rathdown. Kilternan is one of the most beautiful areas in my constituency. It is in the Dublin Mountains on the Wicklow border. We have a very diverse community with more suburban areas like Dundrum and Stillorgan but as one moves up towards Belarmine, Carrickmines, Stepaside and Kilternan, they are quite different in terms of the topographical area and some of the challenges that brings. Parents are at the end of their tether with no school places for their children for September 2026. Last week, parents from the Kilternan community held a meeting to discuss this. There was story after story of frustration, lack of place allocation and endless waiting lists. These families need to know their children will have a school to go to next September. One challenge this community faces is development. There has been huge housing and infrastructure development in Kilternan but it has not been matched with school place provision. Of course, we want to celebrate that this is a growing community. It is wonderful to see this beautiful part of our constituency is under development but it has to be matched with the resources that are needed. There are multiple housing projects under construction and commencements due over the period ahead locally. The need for school places will only grow in the area yet the community is already crying out for schools for the children of Kilternan.

I will touch on the different needs at primary and secondary level. At present, there is no secondary school in the Kilternan school planning area. Children who attend primary school locally have no local secondary school to go to when they finish. They do not receive guaranteed admission to any local secondary schools. As a result, families are facing commutes to different locations outside their area with their children. As I mentioned, that is practically challenging when people are in an area with the topographical challenges Kilternan brings, which is a hilly area. I will get onto transport and the challenges around that later. In primary school need, the community is facing an immediate crisis for 2026 for junior infant intake. Families are contacting my office constantly, experiencing huge anxiety over whether they will be able to obtain any place for their children to begin school. I mention specifically Our Lady of the Wayside National School which is trying to accommodate as many students as it can. The school has full planning permission for an extension and new facilities but the Department has not committed to the allocation of funding, which I find bizarre given the reply to a parliamentary question said the preference is always to build on rather than building a new school. I am curious as to why that gap is happening.

I urge the Department to reconsider and I invite the Minister of State to meet the principal Fiona Downes on the issue. A site for schools has been reserved in Kilternan for many years by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council but the Department of Education and Youth has yet to sanction the delivery of the required schools.

What metrics are being used by the Department to determine the need for a new school? Will the Department commit to schools for Kilternan? When are families going to see the delivery of these schools? They are at the end of their tethers with the frustration, anxiety and stress this is bringing to them and their young children. How does the Government intend to provide school places for the children of this rapidly-growing community in the interim?

As I have not had an opportunity to say it yet, I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment.

I thank the Deputy very much. I thank her also for raising this very important Topical Issue on the need for schools in the Kilternan school planning area. I am pleased to have the opportunity to describe, on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy Naughton, how the Department keeps the requirement for school places under review.

In order to plan for school provision and analyse the relevant demographic data, the Department divides the country into 314 school planning areas and uses a geographical information system with data from a range of sources, including CSO census data, child benefit and school enrolment data, to identify where the pressure for school places across the country will arise and where additional school accommodation is needed at primary and post-primary level. Major new residential developments have the potential to alter the demand for school places at a local level. In that regard, as part of the demographic demand analysis, the Department monitors planning and construction activity in the residential sector. This involves the analysis of data sources from local authorities and the CSO along with the engagement with local authorities and the construction sector. In this way, up-to-date information on significant new residential developments is obtained and factored into the demographic analysis exercise. This is necessary to ensure schools infrastructure planning is keeping pace with demographic changes at a local level where there is a constantly-evolving picture with planned new residential development.

Where demographic data indicates that additional provision is required the delivery of such additional provision is dependent on the circumstances of each case and may be provided through utilising existing unused capacity within a school or schools, extending the capacity of a school or schools and provision of a new school or schools. If additional accommodation is required, the aim is to try and facilitate this as much as possible by way of expansion of existing schools rather than establishing new schools. The expansion of existing schools is consistent with wider Government objectives under Project Ireland 2040 for an increased emphasis on compact growth. In respect of post-primary schools, new post primary schools must have a student enrolment capacity of 600 to 1,000 students and must be coeducational. A lower threshold of 400 students may apply to Gaelcholáistí, having regard to the alternative of establishing an Irish-medium unit in an English-medium school.

There are fewer than 600 post-primary schoolgoing children and young people living in the Kilternan school planning area. Capacity has been provided in post-primary schools in neighbouring areas to cater for this demand. The demand for primary school places is being catered for in the three existing primary schools in the Kilternan school planning area, including, as the Deputy mentioned, Our Lady of the Wayside National School, which has a capital project to extend from 12 to 16 mainstream classrooms and SEN facilities. Therefore, there are no plans at present to establish new primary or post-primary schools in the Kilternan school planning area. The Department is aware of planned residential developments and has regular engagement with local authorities regarding the progress of the proposed developments.

I take on board what the Deputy said about the topographical issue in the area and the fact she has asked the Minister to visit Our Lady of the Wayside National School. Is it Ms Leahy or Ms Touhy?

It is Fiona Downes. I will send on the details.

I will pass that on to the Minister as well. I thank the Deputy.

I thank the Minister of State. There is a lot of detail there about the different demographic data and census data. I am trying to add to that data the voice of the people of Dublin Rathdown and specifically Kilternan. These constituents are, as I said, incredibly frustrated at this. The Minister of State touched on some of the alternatives in other areas but the issue with that is I have just heard this morning that transport is not going to be provided by the Department. Kilternan is already struggling with transport. As I mentioned, those key areas of Kilternan, Stepaside, Carrickmines and Belarmine are all disadvantaged. Although BusConnects is going to provide some additional relief it is not going to be enough and it is already not enough. Constituents with children who are already forced to travel for school are experiencing huge difficulty with this so there is no doubt in my mind or that of the community that a new school is needed. I have heard from multiple families that they have been rejected by four local primary schools and are on waiting lists for them with zero guarantees.

It is hugely concerning this shortfall of places has happened under the Department's existing assessment criteria. That tells me these criteria are not working. How is the Department planning on meeting the school place need for children in Kilternan for September 2026? That is the most urgent issue here. What guarantee can the Department give the families of Kilternan their children will have places to start school in September 2026? Once again, if the priority is adding onto existing premises for compact development, as the Minister of State said, why is it that full capacity of planning permission is not being delivered? What is proposed instead is prefabs and so on.

Again, many thanks to the Deputy for her best wishes in my new role as a Minister of State.

She has made some very important interventions regarding her area. I am familiar with that area and new schools are only established in areas of demographic growth as the resources available for school infrastructure have to be prioritised to meet the needs of areas of significant population increase to ensure every child has a school place. The Department continues to liaise with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council in respect of the county development plan and any associated local area plans with a view to identifying any potential long-term school accommodation requirements across school planning areas. The Deputy has brought very important issues to the House and I will raise them with the Minister.

Child Abuse

I thank the Minister of State for being here. I want to draw to his attention what is not happening within Scouting Ireland. The problem is this is a legacy issue that goes back to the 1980s. I went to one of the same schools as many of these people did. It is about abuse and a specific teacher who got ten years in jail for raping young boys predominantly as a schoolteacher, a scout leader and a scout commissioner for the diocese of Cloyne. He also ran the summer camp in Mount Melleray. Back in 2018 or 2019, Scouting Ireland put out a notice asking that anybody who was affected by this should make contact with it so those people who were directly affected by this individual could engage in a process where they might get some solace. However, I met with a survivor very recently and he told me that back as far as 2019 he contacted Scouting Ireland but he has never heard anything from the organisation. At the time he was a minor so Tusla was involved. The individual told me he would have a better chance emptying the Red Sea with a bucket with no ass in it than getting any help from Tusla. He has told me Scouting Ireland has changed its legal team, possibly twice, since 2019 when he brought the abuse to its attention. His legal team, which he has to pay, feel they have been stalled and they cannot get any answers to this. This was reported on a number of times and I will quote one or two of the headlines to give the Minister of State what was in the public domain. One was "Man repeatedly raped by teacher in classroom as an 11-year-old boy seeks apology over vile attacks". That individual when he was old enough - because, again, he did not get any answers - left the country and tried to make a new life for himself somewhere else.

The unfortunate thing is that I know four, possibly five, who left as well over the craic with this, but they left through suicide.

I wish to advise the Deputy that according to the Dáil Salient Rulings of the Chair, Nos. 467 and 468, Members should not comment, criticise or make any charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way to make him identifiable.

I did not name anybody. I am well aware of that. I thank the Acting Chair. The case about the schoolteacher is well documented. What I am trying to raise here, as the individual asked me to do, is to find out what recourse this person and others have right now. We have learned nothing from the mother and baby home scandal. What can I tell this individual? Somebody is going to tell me that it is a legal issue. Scouting Ireland is being paid taxpayers' money. For starters, I would like to know how much it has spent defending the indefensible. How much has it paid out in legal costs, again trying to bury what has happened?

In 1982 The Stranglers' "Golden Brown" was No. 1. I was not thrown out of the school for standing up, but they said to me that they would much prefer if I did not come back after the Easter holidays. I am speaking from personal experience. I knew this individual. He was a nasty individual. I am not here for kudos for me. What I am trying to get is information on behalf of those who are still alive, and still brave enough to talk up, who are being stone-walled left, right and centre. Scouting Ireland has been deplorable, absolutely diabolical. It has spent more time, energy and money trying to bury this when the person got ten years in jail for it. Scouting Ireland is not doing what it is supposed to do, which is to look after those who were interfered with by this teacher. Where do I go?

I thank the Deputy for raising this very harrowing and distressing matter, which I am answering on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth, Deputy Naughton.

Child safeguarding in Scouting Ireland is a matter that is taken extremely seriously by the Department. As the Deputy is aware, Scouting Ireland is a voluntary organisation and a registered charity governed by an independent board of directors. It receives an annual grant from the Department of Education and Youth under youth services grants. Scouting Ireland receives the majority of its funding through membership subscriptions and fund-raising. I believe that Scouting Ireland would acknowledge that young people were not always properly protected in the past in the scouting movement. Today, Scouting Ireland has a well resourced safeguarding office, supported by dedicated funding from the Department of Education and Youth. As a major recipient of funding under the youth services grant scheme, YSGS, officials from the Department engage regularly with Scouting Ireland to ensure proper governance in relation to funding from the Department and to ensure that the organisation has adequate child safeguarding structures in place. Officers from the youth affairs unit, which administers the youth services grant scheme, hold biannual governance meetings with the board and senior management of Scouting Ireland. Safeguarding is a standing item on the agenda for these meetings.

As I mentioned, since 2019 dedicated funding has been provided to Scouting Ireland to support its safeguarding office. In 2025, €251,377 of Scouting Ireland's overall YSGS grant of €1,504,312 was ring-fenced for this safeguarding office. Since 2023, Scouting Ireland has been submitting regular reports to the Department of Children, Disability and Equality and, following the transfer of youth functions, to the Department of Education and Youth. The reports received to date have been reviewed by officials and have been deemed satisfactory. Ongoing engagement between officials and Scouting Ireland indicates that safeguarding is a strong focus and priority for Scouting Ireland, and that robust safeguarding structures are in place.

It is a requirement for renewal of funding under the youth services grant scheme that funded organisations, including Scouting Ireland, meet the following conditions: that the organisation adheres to national child protection guidelines and procedures; that the organisation has policies in line with legislation, on the Children First Act 2015 and Garda vetting; that the organisation's recruitment and selection processes are in line with the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Acts 2012-2016; that the organisation has a child protection policy and accompanying procedures; that the organisation's board review their child safeguarding policy, to ensure it abides by all legal requirements, and have written procedures in place.

Scouting Ireland is an important part of the youth sector in Ireland. Its 2024 progress report showed that 33,985 young people were taking part in scouting as members of 392 groups, led by over 7,000 volunteers. The Department is committed to supporting the important work carried out by Scouting Ireland. I hear Deputy Buckley's message loud and clear. There are some aspects of it that the Department maybe cannot deal with, but I will bring his views back to the Minister.

I thank the Minister of State. I want to let the Acting Chair know that the perpetrator is now deceased and the name is already in the public domain.

I thank the Minister of State for the response from the Minister's office. Every time I come in here, we do not know everything. I see in the response that €251,000 was ring-fenced for safeguarding. I would say Scouting Ireland has spent a lot more than €251,000 on it.

The response also states that the organisation adheres to national child protection guidelines and procedures. I am going to look at them and see whether that is the case because a lot of people are coming to me saying that they have been ignored for years.

In addition, we are told the organisation's board reviews the child safeguarding policy to ensure it abides by all legal requirements and has written procedures in place. I would like to see the written procedures because this individual rang seven years ago and was referred to Tusla, and that is where it stopped.

I am concentrating on this one individual because they gave me the most information. Their life has been ruined. The trauma is still ongoing. The person is very happily married and they have children. They are lucky to still be in a good working relationship in life. All this individual and others want are answers to why they were not safeguarded and why they were not facilitated with help once the reporting started and it all went into the public domain. This issue was raised in July 2003, March 2004 and the most recent article was in 2017. It is not a big secret, but what I am trying to find out is who I can go to in order to make sure that Scouting Ireland lives up to its responsibility and gives these people and others a proper response, and stops stalling and wasting money by using senior counsel and stalling the process in court houses and changing legal counsel to take it on again. It is only costing these people money. I thank the Minister of State for his answer. I will get on to the Minister myself as well. I thank him for his response.

As previously outlined, child safeguarding in Scouting Ireland and all funded organisations working with children and young people is a matter that is taken extremely seriously by the Department. Departmental officials are satisfied that safeguarding is a priority for Scouting Ireland and that the organisation has appropriate safeguarding structures in place. There continues to be ongoing engagement between departmental officials and Scouting Ireland and this engagement, including the continued effective implementation of the processes and governmental structures that I have outlined to the Deputy, provide assurance that robust safeguarding measures are in place in Scouting Ireland.

Deputy Buckley raised some very historical issues. I am sorry that was not the case many years ago. However, I compliment Scouting Ireland. Over many years when I was growing up, I saw the great work that a lot of the leaders did for all the young men. Unfortunately, there were some who stepped absolutely out of line and those issues are being dealt with today. I again thank Deputy Buckley for raising this issue.

Roinn