Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2026

Vol. 1080 No. 2

• Díospóireachtaí
• Aimsigh díospóireacht
  • Díospóireachtaí na Dála
  • Díospóireachtaí an tSeanaid
  • Díospóireachtaí Coiste
• Aimsigh vótáil
  • Vótálacha na Dála
  • Vótálacha an tSeanaid
  • Vótálacha Coiste
• Ceisteanna Parlaiminte
  • Ceisteanna scríofa
  • Ceisteanna ó bhéal
• Leideanna cuardaigh
• Nuair a bhíonn tionchar tromchúiseach ag aithrisí

Bord Bia: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Martin Kenny

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

notes:

— that Bord Bia's mission statement is to bring Ireland's outstanding food, drink and horticulture to the world, thus enabling growth and sustainability of producers;

— the importance of Irish food and drink exports to the Irish economy;

— the importance of Ireland's reputation around the world as a food producer;

— that the Irish food and drinks industry is dependent on Irish farmers as the primary producer; and

— the animal health and welfare standards that Irish farmers must adhere to, and in particular the standards and conditions that are part of Bord Bia's Sustainable Quality Assurance Scheme;

further notes that:

— Irish farmers and their representative organisations have lost confidence in the Chairperson of Bord Bia, as a result of his company's role in importing Brazilian beef into Ireland; and

— continuing as Chairperson undermines public confidence in Bord Bia, and damages Ireland's reputation as a world leader producing food that adheres to the highest standards; and

calls on the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to use his powers under section 18 (1) of the An Bord Bia Act, 1994 to remove from office a member of the Board, with immediate effect.

I wish to share my time with colleagues.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Paula Butterly)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We are back here again, unfortunately. I first want to welcome all the farmers in the Visitors Gallery, who represent thousands of farmers around the country, and who are not "emotional", but are extremely angry about this situation.

Bord Bia has done amazing work promoting Irish food, Irish drink and Irish horticulture around the world, and it has played an important role in increasing Irish exports to record volumes. The value of Irish food, drink and horticulture is estimated to hit €21 billion for 2025. We recognise the role of Bord Bia, its important work and the importance of the trade missions it is engaged in. The problem we have is that the Government and the chairperson of Bord Bia, Larry Murrin, are failing to recognise the importance of Irish farmers and the value of the work they are doing to bring this world-class product to market. Without Irish farmers, the primary producers, there would be no Bord Bia and no world-class produce to go to market.

Bord Bia operates the quality assurance scheme, with thousands of farmers participating in it and complying with the very demanding standards. I want to go through some of those standards. As I said to somebody today, a child being raised in this country does not need to have the same level of records as a calf needs to have in the Bord Bia records. That is astonishing, but it is the reality. Everything they eat has to be recorded. Every vaccine medication they get has to be recorded, and those records have to be kept for inspection. There are records of all animal movements. Does the animal have a health plan? Does it have a health safety statement? Does the farmyard have a layout plan? Has it had Bord Bia inspections every 18 months, as well as complete surveys and audits? The level of record-keeping and paperwork is enormous.

Irish farmers comply with these rules and conditions in order to maintain Ireland's reputation as a world-leading food producer. It is no wonder, then, that farmers are angry when they hear that the chairperson of Bord Bia, Larry Murrin, is importing possibly contaminated Brazilian beef into the supply of his own company in this country. He claims that it is only 1% of the beef he uses, and that may be so, but we all know that Brazilian beef is produced at about 1% of the standards that Irish farmers must comply with. It is blatantly double standards from Larry Murrin, and shows arrogance towards Irish farmers.

I wrote to Dawn Farm Foods in the last couple of weeks to ask if it was one of the three companies that imported Brazilian beef last September that was recalled because it contained banned hormones. I also asked the Minister this on a number of occasions. It replied to the question, but it did not answer the question. We do not know what the three companies are. We do not know if Dawn Farm Foods is one of them. I believe the longer that Larry Murrin remains in his position as chairperson of Bord Bia, the more damage that will be done to the organisation and, unfortunately, to Ireland's reputation.

The Government amendment to our motion states that the majority of the board agreed to support the chairman to continue in his office. I believe this is not an accurate reflection of the board meeting where the IFA and the ICMSA proposed removing Larry Murrin as chairperson. There was no vote. It was stated that it was up to the Minister for agriculture to remove the chairperson of Bord Bia. Comments by the Minister for agriculture and other members of the Government that farm organisations are to blame for this controversy, and the description of farmers as getting "emotional" over the issue, are far from helpful. It is condescending, to say the least.

The IFA is not to blame for this, nor is any other farm organisation. They are not the ones importing Brazilian beef. Their job is to represent Irish farmers, and that is what they are doing. Irish farmers have a right to protest when they feel they are being let down. Irish farmers have been let down by the Minister for agriculture, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, and not for the first time. They put up no opposition to the Mercosur trade agreement, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to vote “No” at the last minute. Then, only half of the Government MEPs voted to send the Mercosur trade agreement to the European Court of Justice. Now, the Government and the Minister for agriculture are deciding to take the side of big business, protecting the well-connected rather than standing up for Irish farmers.

The message from Irish farmers is clear: we do not have confidence in Larry Murrin, and we want to restore confidence in Bord Bia. It is the Minister's job to remove him. Larry Murrin must go, and the Minister must do his job.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

If the Minister wants to understand the crisis, he does not need to go far. He can go upstairs and talk to them up there. He can go and meet the farmers who have protested every day outside Bord Bia's office, and listen to them. They will tell the Minister in clear terms that their confidence in Bord Bia and the Government is shattered.

The controversy surrounding Larry Murrin and Bord Bia is not an isolated incident. It is the latest. The issue should never have reached this point. It is clear that when it comes to standing up for farmers and rural communities, the Government has to be dragged to do the right thing, just as it was finally dragged to oppose the Mercosur trade deal. It is an utter disgrace.

The Government has attempted to lump the blame for all of this onto the IFA and the farmers across Ireland - “emotional nonsense”, as Larry Murrin called it. It is a disgrace. Many of these farmers gave decades of support to the Minister and his colleagues, but that support is clearly not returned. Instead of accountability, the Minister has dug in his heels to defend Larry Murrin as chair of Bord Bia.

The Minister's failure to see the blatant conflict of interest is staggering. Perhaps the Minister does see it and he is simply standing by one of his own through thick and thin. The hypocrisy is not lost on our farmers. Irish beef is the world's gold standard. Over 77,000 farmers work relentlessly to pass the rigorous Bord Bia inspections. I would love to see those inspectors visit Brazilian farms or even the mega slaughterhouses in Brazil that are co-owned by Dawn Meats. Would they pass or is that just another case of "Do as I say not as I do" for Irish family farms?

There is clear cross-party support for this action. Even members of the coalition in Fianna Fáil have called for Mr. Murrin to step down. Fianna Fáil's spokesperson on agriculture has stated that Mr. Murrin's position is untenable. He has lost the trust and confidence of the Irish farming community and as a result he must go. I welcome this cross-party support. Now I urge those Fianna Fáil TDs to follow through on their words, stand with the farmers they represent, and support our motion for the Minister to finally use his powers and remove Larry Murrin from Bord Bia. It is time to restore trust. It is time to stand with Irish farmers.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Minister and the Ministers of State know what has to be done here. Bord Bia is the body tasked with marketing our beef across the world and with overseeing the standards in that regard of all the farmers across the State. My colleague Deputy Martin Kenny referred to the quality assurance scheme. I think there are 66 questions on the survey. Basically, farmers are driven mad with paperwork. That is why we have a world-class standard in beef. In what the Minister has attempted to do in recent days he has not listened to the primary producers. All of the farming organisations are clear that Larry Murrin has to go. They have no confidence in him. Rather than listen to them the Government has picked fights with them. They are the primary producers. They produce the food. The Government is giving credit to Larry Murrin for that quality of beef and that world-class standard around the world but they produced it. The Government has just ignored them and dismissed them to the point now that they have to have a sit-in protest and occupy the Bord Bia office. How much reputational damage has the Government done to Bord Bia at this stage?

This all follows on from the way the Government dealt with Mercosur. Micheál Martin was out in China but he is still not committing to opposing Mercosur. It is outrageous. We have beef that is held to very different standards from what we have to face. I will say it again: the Government has driven our farmers mad with paperwork and it has put the highest demands on farmers with the highest environmental and animal welfare standards in the world, and then it will have our beef competing with very different standards. Micheál Martin dithered. The Minister of State, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae, took his stand. Other backbenchers in Fianna Fáil took their stands. Finally the Government opposed it but it could have formed a blocking minority and it could have done more around that. This issue we are discussing now continues on from that. I believe that the Minister's refusal to ask Larry Murrin to step aside in the interests of our industry and the interests of fairness is a continuance of his lack of stomach to fight for and stand up for our farmers, and to stand up for the standards that we have. This is why these farmers are making the stand. This is why these farming organisations are uniting. Tonight is the Minister's chance to listen and to speak to them. It will be another week before the vote. The Minister will have plenty of time to think. Larry Murrin will be before the committee tomorrow. The Minister has a week to do the right thing. It is far too late but he needs to do it.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Sinn Féin is proposing this motion because the Minister has allowed this scandal to fester and because Fine Gael in particular has circled the wagons to protect their man instead of standing up for farmers. Larry Murrin should have resigned weeks ago. He has not. Instead he has dug in with the blessing of the Government, with the blessing of the Minister, and with the blessing of the Tánaiste, Simon Harris, and the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin. He seems intent to brazen it out. It is two fingers to farmers, to the public, and to anyone who believes public bodies should operate with integrity. An Bord Bia demands the highest standards from Irish farmers. It inspects them, audits them, penalises them and markets their products on the basis of stringent quality checks and traceability. Yet, the chairman of that organisation imports Brazilian beef produced to standards that would be illegal here. There is no ambiguity in that. We all get the message. Farmers hear us clearly and so does the public. Farmers are angry because they are being undermined. The public is livid because we are being treated with contempt. The chairman of Bord Bia importing Brazilian beef while holding Irish farmers to the highest standards is a brazen double standard. When we put that in the context of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Independents preparing to open the door to beef produced with hormones and banned antibiotics and linked to deforestation, the hypocrisy is obvious and farmers can see it clearly. They can smell the bull.

This controversy sits squarely in the context of Mercosur and the Government's double standard on trade, food safety, the environment and rural livelihoods. Fine Gael is at the centre of this. They are shielding one of their own and hoping this will blow over. Fianna Fáil and the Lowry and Healy-Rae Independents are content to stay quiet and let Fine Gael give two fingers to farmers and to rural Ireland. They say one thing at home and do another in Europe. Trust has been destroyed because people can see the hypocrisy so clearly. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, has the power to end this today. He can restore confidence in Bord Bia or he can continue to protect the indefensible. Larry Murrin's position is now untenable and if this Government votes against this motion next week farmers will hear that message again loud and clear. We in Sinn Féin stand with Irish farmers. Larry Murrin must go and the Government must quit the charade and get serious about opposing Mercosur.

Deputy Louis O'Hara

The position of Larry Murrin as chairman of Bord Bia is untenable. The revelations surrounding his company's importation of substandard Brazilian beef into Ireland are an insult to Irish farmers and have created a crisis of confidence within Bord Bia. The farmers I speak to in my constituency have totally lost confidence in the chairman and they are also beginning to lose total confidence in the Government through the Minister's handling of this fiasco.

This is fundamentally about the double standards that are now on show. Through Bord Bia Irish farmers must meet the strictest food production standards while at the same time the organisation's chairman is importing Brazilian beef into Ireland. There is also the image of an organisation whose whole remit is to promote the quality of Irish food around the world yet its chairman is importing foreign beef into Ireland. How could anybody stand over this situation? How can the Minister seriously believe this does not damage the image of Bord Bia and undermine its work?

When this issue was raised last week the Minister decided against taking action to hold Mr. Murrin to account and instead chose to lay the blame for this controversy with Irish farmers and farming organisations. The Minister told them they were being "emotional". This was absolutely insulting. It shows that the Government seems to be totally indifferent to the views of farmers, the very same people who produce the food and on whom the success of Bord Bia is built.

The Government has allowed this situation to drag on for weeks now. Its failure to act has damaged further the reputation of Bord Bia. This comes at a time when the Irish Government has failed to block the Mercosur trade agreement. Given the recent outbreaks of bluetongue, and with the future of CAP at stake, this is the very last thing the farming sector needs to be dealing with right now. Yet, the Minister comes in here tonight and tell us that everything is all right and there is nothing to see here. Whether the Minister likes it or not, the farmers do not have confidence in Larry Murrin's position as the chairman. We have brought this motion before the Dáil tonight to bring an end to this fiasco. The Minister appointed Larry Murrin to this position and the Minister can also remove him from it. The message from farmers is loud and clear: Larry Murrin must go. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, must use his powers to put an end to this mess and restore confidence in this organisation.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

This Government has shown us time and again that it is allergic to accountability. The Government has shown us that there is one rule for those on the inside and one rule for everybody else. Larry Murrin is well and truly under the protective wing of the Government. For the head of Bord Bia to be the head of a meat processing company that imports Brazilian beef is simply not acceptable. Surely to God some of the Government backbenchers already recognise that the position is untenable, and the Government needs to recognise the same. It is not just Sinn Féin saying this; farmers right up and down the State are calling it out. Larry Murrin is the head of an agency that markets Irish beef around the world and at the same time he is importing and selling Brazilian beef. The Minister is making a mockery of the position by continuing to pretend not to see the massive conflict of interest that is staring him in the face.

His appointment reflects the kind of due diligence we are coming to expect of Fianna Fáil. Last week, the Tánaiste, Simon Harris, said that his Government listens and engages, but it is not listening and not engaging. It is trying to delay and placate, hoping this will all blow over so it can make sure people at the top are protected and will not face any accountability. There is an absolute collapse in confidence in Bord Bia among farmers as a result of this debacle. The loss of confidence is spreading to Government because it is going out of its way to defend the indefensible. It is saying to farmers that their voice does not matter, their concerns do not matter, and it does not matter who is chairperson of Bord Bia and this Government does not think it is important for the chairman of Bord Bia to have the confidence of our farmers. That is an extraordinary position to take.

The Minister even started talking down to farmers, saying that they were being misled and do not really understand the situations, and talking about farmers only being upset because they are being tricked. What is this Government trying to do? Is it really to accuse the largest farming organisation in the country of misleading its members so the head of An Bord Bia can be protected? The chair of Bord Bia is the head of a company that imports Brazilian beef. It is produced to lower standards and is subject to weaker safety requirements. Those are the facts. It is black and white. At the same time, the Minister thinks he is fit to chair the State agency charged with promoting Irish beef, which is produced to the highest environmental, welfare and food safety standards, at home and abroad. Only wilful blindness can stop him seeing the conflict of interest here. Farmers are the heart and soul of our agricultural industry. It is their hard graft that delivers good quality food and meats every single day to ever-higher environmental, animal welfare and regulatory standards. They know, and they have lost confidence in the chair of Bord Bia. The Government now needs to do its job and remove him from his position.

Deputy Donna McGettigan

The Bord Bia quality and trust mark is something I trust and look for as a consumer. It means something to people. It tells us that what we are eating is safe, meets the highest standards and comes from our land. The fact that I can trace what I am eating back to a farmer or field in Ireland is reassuring and something I value deeply, not just because you are what you eat, but because it allows me to know I am contributing to supporting local farmers and suppliers who work tirelessly to uphold those standards. This is not just a rural issue. This is an urban and rural issue. Transparency about what we are eating matters to every family in every community. Yet, we now have a situation where the chair of Bord Bia, an organisation whose own website states it exists to promote Ireland's outstanding food, drink and horticulture to the world, is at the same time importing Brazilian beef that we know entered Ireland with banned hormones. This is an unacceptable conflict. As a consumer this leads me to have a lack of faith in the chair of the board. If he continues in that role, I and many others will lose faith in Bord Bia altogether. Trust once broken is not easily repaired. This conflict must end, and the trust that Irish people place in Bord Bia must be allowed to be rebuilt. The importance of Irish food and drink exports is at risk here. Our reputation is hard won, and it must not be undermined. The Minister has the power to remove this member from the board with immediate effect. Irish farmers and their representative organisations have lost confidence in the chairperson, and it is time to listen to them. For Sinn Féin this is about standing with Irish farmers, protecting consumers and defending the integrity of Irish food. The chair must resign, and he must resign now.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "further notes that" and substitute the following:

"— the Board of Bord Bia, including the Chair, is made up of 15 members from across all areas of the agri-food sector, and its function is to promote, assist and develop, in any manner which the Board considers necessary or desirable, the marketing of Irish food and livestock;

— the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine estimates that total Irish agri-food exports in 2025 will be a record €21 billion;

— the growth in the value of agri-food exports has been remarkable, increasing from an exports value of €10 billion in 2011;

— beef exports to some 70 countries have increased over the last five years by 40 per cent, from €2.2 billion in 2019 to €3.1 billion in 2024, an increase of €890 million;

— Bord Bia is carrying out its mission to a high standard, making its contribution along with farmers and the wider agri-food industry to the export success of a vital sector;

— the Origin Green programme, supported by the work of farmers' and their participation in Quality Assurance Schemes at farm level, has been integral in providing proof points to international customers of the quality and sustainability of Irish food and drink products, and creating market opportunities for that produce;

— the Board of Bord Bia has discussed the issues raised, and the majority agreed outcome was to support the Chairperson to continue in office, with all of the Board members strongly endorsing the personal integrity and experience of the Chair, and acknowledged that there was no legal or governance issue at play;

— the Chairperson has accepted an invitation to appear at the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food on Thursday 5th February to discuss the issues raised; and

— the Government retains confidence in the Chairperson.".

It is a deep disappointment to me that we are here this evening to discuss this motion. Tonight, a political party is trying to exploit the concerns of farmers for its own narrow interests. We face loads of challenges in agriculture that need to be addressed. Earlier this week I met the European Commissioners for agriculture and budget alongside the Tánaiste and the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs. On the table for discussion was the EU’s budget for the next seven years and the proposed reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. We could have used our time this evening to debate and discuss that because it is critical to the incomes of over 120,000 Irish farms. The clock is ticking on how to make the best use of the time we have now before Ireland assumes the European Presidency, to put the green jersey on and act in the best interests of our farmers.

Earlier today I briefed my Cabinet colleagues on the latest situation regarding the first outbreak of bluetongue in Ireland, a serious development that has the potential to create real difficulties for our farmers during what is an incredibly busy time on farms. We could have had an opportunity this evening to discuss the issue and reassure farmers that everything that can be done is being done to set out the intensive testing and surveillance that is under way and ensure the continued flow of product and livestock, and the steps farmers can take to protect their farms. Instead, Sinn Féin has done what Sinn Féin always does. It has sought to divide, to enrage and to grandstand.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

It is about accountability.

Deputy Martin Heydon

That is not surprising. Explaining global food supply chains and contingency planning does not make for good social media clips. It is much easier for them to come in here and roar and shout as Deputy McGuinness is doing about giving a man the sack. Did Sinn Féin make any attempt to seek a briefing from the chair of Bord Bia on this issue before calling for his head? I did not think so; there is silence.

Deputy Noel Grealish

A kangaroo court.

Deputy Martin Heydon

It is the same briefing I got and members of Bord Bia got. The Members opposite could have sought it before they called for a man to resign. Maybe the facts would not have been helpful as they are trying to whip people up. They have form on this. Their leader Mary Lou McDonald called for the head of the Garda Commissioner the day after riots in Dublin. Their housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin called for a senior Department of Finance official to be sacked because he did not like his opinion. With Sinn Féin it is sack first and ask questions later. I believe tonight’s motion sends a clear message to the chair of every other State board in the country as to how Sinn Féin operates. At the centre of this issue is a contract between an Irish food company, which employs thousands of people here, and a major international client. It is a contract worth hundreds of millions to Irish agriculture and one that extends to over 40 markets way beyond just Ireland, the UK and Europe to include the Middle East and Asia as well. Let us not forget that the vast majority of food produced on this island, over 90% of farmers' beef, sheep meat and dairy, is exported. Our industry operates in a global trading environment and that means we have to be responsive to the customers' requirements. The reality is that major international customers require proof of contingency provisions for continuity of supply in the unlikely event of disruption to the supply chain in Ireland or across EU supplies.

The fact that we are talking about less than 1% of the overall contract demonstrates it is just that, proof of a channel for contingency of supply should a food outbreak break out like we had with pork dioxins in 2008 when every bit of Irish pork came off the shelves overnight.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is 10% acceptable? What about 20% or 30% maybe?

Deputy Martin Heydon

If this was about price, it would be a lot more than 1%. The Deputy does not like what I am saying. I did not interrupt him.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

They might learn something. If they stay quiet they might learn the complex issue.

Deputy Martin Heydon

If this were about price we would be talking about a lot more than 1%. It is not. In general, if an Irish food company-----

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

That is a startling admission, Minister.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Paula Butterly)

Deputy.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I did not interrupt you lads.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Nobody on that side was interrupted.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I will offer the time afterwards to my colleagues as well.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

You sold out a long time ago, Healy-Rae. You will not be standing in any markets much longer. You sold out the farmers a long time ago.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Do not point your finger at me.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I do not see you standing with them outside Bord Bia. You sold out.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Fifteen years as spokesman in opposition on finance.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Can I get his time afterwards?

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

We know the price of a Minister of State now.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Beating your chest in the markets.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Fifteen years mouthing.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Paula Butterly)

Deputy Doherty, no more please.

Deputy Martin Heydon

As I was saying, if an Irish food company failed to address the contingency supply as part of a contract for a major international buyer of Irish produce, that client company would take its business elsewhere. Imagine for a minute here, with all their shouting and bluster, if that contract had gone to a Dutch, German or any non-Irish food company-----

Deputy Pat Buckley

He is making up stories now.

Deputy Martin Heydon

-----how much of that contract do they think would involve Irish produce? It is very little, I can guarantee.

The Bord Bia board met on Thursday, 22 January to discuss the issues raised and the recent media coverage. I sought and received a detailed report from Bord Bia following that meeting. It is worth repeating that the members strongly endorsed the integrity of the chairman, the transparency of his business and his invaluable experience that has benefited Bord Bia and the wider Irish food industry. There was acknowledgement that there were no legal or governance issues at play. The board had good and thorough discussion of the issues covered in the media and the majority of board members were fully supportive of the chair continuing to serve. The chairman has offered to meet the IFA and its full national council, and all of its county and commodity chairs. I know there are many here. He offered to provide a detailed briefing in relation to the company’s approach to sourcing. To date, this offer has not been taken up. Just over three weeks ago, the Ministers of State, Deputies Grealish, Healy-Rae and Dooley and I addressed the IFA national council in Bluebell for over three hours at its AGM.

A lot of different viewpoints were expressed. We listened and responded and while we might not have agreed on everything, I think we all left with a better understanding of each other’s perspectives at the end.

This current impasse does not serve farmers’ interests well. I again urge the IFA leadership to consider this offer from the chairman of Bord Bia because denying IFA council members that same briefing is doing them a disservice too. In the meantime, the chairman has accepted an invitation to appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food tomorrow, Thursday, 5 February. That will be an opportunity to hear the detail of the matter. Given its negligent or deliberate refusal to seek a full briefing on the issue before now, it is not a coincidence that Sinn Féin is attempting to suppress that process with a motion before the House here tonight, creating-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

The motion was put down beforehand.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Prove my point.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Come off it.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Prove my next line before I say it.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister is so disingenuous. He is something else.

Deputy Martin Heydon

Sinn Féin is creating noise and bluster to try to make sure farmers cannot get any reasonable, detailed debate around the detail of this matter.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister knows this motion was put down last week before that happened. The Minister knows that.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

The Minister is misleading-----

Deputy Martin Heydon

As I said at the outset, we face loads of challenges in agriculture.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Honest debate seems to be gone, just like an honest chairman.

Deputy Martin Heydon

They will not be resolved by ultimatums or diktats. I have always defended the agriculture sector. I have done so in the best interests of our farmers and our wider agrifood sector. That is my job.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Why is the Minister facing down farmers now?

Deputy Martin Heydon

That is my job in the Department and at the Cabinet table. I do it to the very best of my ability and I will continue to do it, whether it is on nitrates, Mercosur-----

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Will the Minister join the sit-in protest?

Deputy Martin Heydon

-----CAP or on bluetongue.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Will the Minister join the sit-in protest?

Deputy Martin Heydon

Instead of coming in here looking for cheap social media clips on the back of an individual who has made a significant contribution to an important organisation-----

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

Minister for bluster.

Deputy Martin Heydon

-----Sinn Féin might reflect on whether it could have used its time better here in farmers' interests discussing another item.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The Minister should have moved on this weeks ago.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I trust my colleague will get the appropriate four minutes that eluded him because of the interruptions.

Deputy Conor D. McGuinness

There was plenty of time in Government business today.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Noel Grealish)

I welcome the opportunity to address the House on the vital role played by Bord Bia in the continued success of Ireland’s agrifood sector. Agriculture and food are at the heart of our national economy and rural and coastal communities. The agrifood sector is our oldest and largest export sector, delivering high-quality produce to more than 190 countries worldwide, accounting for almost 9% of all goods exported from Ireland.

The scale of our export orientation cannot be understated. Around 90% of Irish beef, sheep meat and dairy produce is exported each year, meaning our global trading relationships and reputation are essential to the sector’s continued success. In this context, Bord Bia’s role is absolutely central. Through comprehensive quality assurance programmes and extensive market expertise, Bord Bia provides confidence to international customers and strengthens Ireland’s standing as a reliable supplier of high-quality food and drink. The strength of this work is evident in the performance of our sector. While the final CSO figures will not be available until later this month, my Department estimates that total agrifood exports reached €21 billion in 2025, the highest figure on record and an extraordinary rise from €10 billion in 2011.

While these results are positive, the global trading environment remains complex. Geopolitical issues, supply chain pressures and market volatility have challenged exporters in recent years. Yet, the Irish agrifood sector has shown resilience, with notable improvements in output prices, reduced input costs and better family farm incomes over the past year.

To strengthen our position further, the Government’s action plan on market diversification is deepening our engagement with existing partners while targeting emerging markets. Throughout 2025, my Department maintained an intensive programme of bilateral engagement, technical negotiations and certification inspections to secure new market openings. Bord Bia has supported this work by sustaining current trade, identifying opportunities for innovation and seeking openings where Ireland has not traditionally traded. Bord Bia has the ability to find and sustain new markets, supporting Irish producers by strengthening existing trading relationships while also opening fresh opportunities across the globe.

Over the past year, we have seen considerable success in new market access. Irish beef secured entry into Libya, Thailand and Vietnam, while access for duck meat was achieved in Malaysia following extensive negotiation. Access for Irish beef into Japan has also been expanded to include cooked beef products. These developments greatly extend the global reach of Irish food producers.

In my role, I have had the privilege of supporting this international work directly. Only last week, I led a trade mission to the United Arab Emirates, delivered in collaboration with Bord Bia, that was centred on the Gulfood exhibition, the largest food and beverage showcase in the world. Similar engagements last year brought me to Mexico, South Am-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister of State said "South America" there.

Deputy Noel Grealish

-----South Africa, Vietnam, Cambodia and major European markets, including Germany and France. On each occasion, I witnessed the high regard in which Irish food is held and the strength of the relationships Bord Bia has built on the ground. The foundation of this sector’s success is, and always will be, the people who produce our food. Our farmers, fishers, processors and food and drink producers-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Listen to them.

Deputy Noel Grealish

-----work tirelessly every day to ensure Ireland continues to deliver excellence to international markets.

I acknowledge the leadership and professionalism of the board and chairman of Bord Bia, Larry Murrin, in whom I have full confidence. Their strategic guidance and wealth of experience have been instrumental in promoting Ireland's reputation globally and supporting the long-term interests of the agrifood sector.

As we look ahead to 2026, our focus remains clear to strengthen existing markets, open new ones and ensure Ireland continues to be recognised worldwide as a provider of high-quality food and drink. Working together - Government, Bord Bia and all the stakeholders — we can continue to deliver growth, stability and opportunity across the entire agrifood sector.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

The Minister said in his script that he believes tonight’s motions sends a clear message to the chairs of every other State board in the country as to how Sinn Féin rolls, and it does indeed. It tells them that accountability is important to Sinn Féin. Even if it does not matter to this Government, it will always matter to us. The failure of the chair of Bord Bia to read the room and resign raises serious questions about accountability. I have said it before and I will say it here again tonight: this Government is allergic to accountability. This latest fiasco is just another example of that. Larry Murrin is the figurehead for quality in Irish food. He and Bord Bia are responsible for ensuring that quality standards for Irish food are upheld. How can he continue in his role when trust has been broken? How can he have any hand, act or part in the importation of Brazilian beef while pretending that he can police and uphold standards for Irish farmers? I do not know an awful lot about farming and I do not pretend to but by Jesus, I know Government hypocrisy when I see it, and that is what is on display here this evening.

I am a consumer. I spoke to my constituents over the weekend about this motion and they all said the same thing to me. They said that we need to have confidence and Bord Bia should be the symbol for that. While the Government digs in and defends its man at all costs, that confidence is just not there. Consumers deserve to have confidence in the food they buy. How in the name of God can the man who imports beef that falls well short of the standards of Irish beef have people’s confidence when he is importing Brazilian beef and undermining the standards that he is telling all the others in the farming community they must uphold? This is, again, another lesson learnt from this Government - it is, “Do as I say but not as I do”. If Larry Murrin understood the damage that this scandal has caused to Irish farmers, he would do the right thing and resign, but he is digging in so the Minister has to do his job. Larry Murrin’s position is untenable. He must go. The Minister must do the right thing and remove him.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

Bord Bia has done some very good work promoting Ireland’s food and drink around the world and protecting the reputation of those exports but that very reputation is built on the work that goes on in cold yards, calving sheds, milking parlours and small farms where people are farming under ever-increasing pressure. Irish food and drink exports are vital to our economy but let us be very clear: there are no exports without farmers. Those farmers are expected to meet the highest standards. They are constantly told that they must do more, from environmental to welfare measures that incur more costs, and all of this is under Bord Bia’s sustainable quality assurance scheme. Farmers do it. They comply and play by the rules. How does the Minister think they feel when they see the chairperson of Bord Bia linked to the importation of Brazilian beef into Ireland?

It is a slap in the face to every farmer here. Farmers are furious because they see the hypocrisy, even if the Government does not. Irish farmers are held to gold-plated standards while imports are waved through the door. They are told they must protect Ireland's reputation while the very person charged with protecting the reputation of Bord Bia is associated with undermining it. What has the Government done? It has done nothing. There have been nothing but delays, excuses and circling the wagons.

The Government is quick to come down hard on farmers with inspections, penalties and demands, but when it comes to accountability at the top of Bord Bia, suddenly it is missing in action. Farmers ask one simple question. How can they be expected to meet these standards if the leadership of Bord Bia does not even respect them? This comes at a time when farmers are already deeply concerned about Mercosur and the flooding of the market with even more South American imports produced to lower standards. There is one rule for Irish farmers, another for foreign imports and a third for the head of Bord Bia.

This is simple. Continuing with the current chairperson of Bord Bia undermines public confidence. It damages Bord Bia and Ireland's reputation as a world leader in high-quality food production. That is why the Sinn Féin motion calls on the Minister to stop hiding behind excuses, to stop ignoring the voices of farmer representatives and farming communities and to use his powers to remove the chairperson from office immediately.

Farmers have had enough of double standards, hypocrisy and being treated as an afterthought. They deserve better. Bord Bia must be worthy of the producers it claims to represent and trust must be restored.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

I welcome the farmers who have come to see the real Government tonight. They are very welcome to the Dáil Chamber.

Here we go again. Hot on the heels of the fake opposition to the Mercosur trade deal, the arrogance of the Government is palpable. The Government will hector and lecture Irish farmers about environmental standards while failing to meaningfully oppose European measures clearly designed to supplant their produce. Not content with that, the leader of the very organisation meant to champion Irish produce has been outed as a buyer of the same inferior products that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have enabled increased importation of. I can see why the Government retains confidence in Bord Bia's chairperson. By importing Brazilian beef, Mr. Murrin was simply aligning himself with Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael policy.

Our farming families face inordinate pressures, rising input costs and the need to meet ever-rising environmental standards. Too often, they are then left to absorb the related costs within already meagre margins. They are constantly told that they need to do more to receive less in real terms. They are treated as if they should be celebrating so-called record funding that equates, in real terms, to cuts, as if they are fools who cannot account for inflation. That is the crux of the issue before the House. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, alongside the chairperson of Bord Bia, felt that they could take our farming families for fools, that they could tell them there is nothing to be angry about and that they would buy it, and that families would eat this beef. The Government thinks it is acceptable to do so.

Mr. Murrin has decried farmers' anger over this situation as emotional nonsense. With empathy non-existent, I would say that Mr. Murrin clearly lacks the capacity to chair any board, let alone one that cannot function without our farmers.

Sinn Féin's motion offers the Members of this House a choice. Do they hear the anger of our farming families? Can they understand it? Will they acknowledge it and respond to it or do they stand with Mr. Murrin and his uncaring charge of emotional nonsense against our farming families?

Deputy Pa Daly

What is at stake here is fundamental, and that is trust. It is trust that our food is safe, that our high standards are upheld and that those at the top are bound by the same rules as those at the bottom. This trust and leadership is earned. We need to know that the State's own agency to promote and develop the Irish food industry has the best interests of the Irish people at heart, is 100% beside Irish farmers and stands with them, and will not throw Irish farmers under the bus as soon as there is extra profit to be made. As long as the current chair stays, we cannot have such confidence.

It is hard to see why the Minister has not acted already. Bord Bia is not just another agency. It is the voice of Ireland on the world stage, carrying the hopes of rural communities and family farms, and the ambitions of exporters. It is not credible to have a State agency demanding the highest production standards from Irish farmers while at the same time its chair is importing substandard beef from Brazil. Those are double standards and a two-tier system. Why am I not surprised? We heard the concern over Mercosur and Brazilian beef. This controversy has raged for two weeks and still the Government has not done what is required. How little it has done is astonishing.

Does the Minister think that farmers are being a little too emotional? Is the IFA in Kerry being too emotional? Are farm families in Kerry too emotional? An bhfuil daoine cosúil le John Joe Mac Gearailt ón INHFA ró-mhothúchánach? What about the people in Gortatlea Mart? Are they too emotional? The people of Kerry are watching. The people of Ireland are watching. Does the Government stand with farmers? Do its members call on the Minister, Deputy Heydon, to remove the chair of Bord Bia? Whose side are they on? It is astonishing that the Taoiseach did not even know the powers that he had to remove the chair. It is not good enough. The way the situation has been handled is a mess. It proves the Government is not on the side of Irish farmers. We all know it is not on the side of Irish people.

Farmers have made it clear that they are not giving up, leanann siad ar aghaidh, and neither are we.

Deputy Robert O'Donoghue

I want to be clear that I believe this motion to be premature, not because questions about Bord Bia are unimportant, because they are, but because we, as elected Members of the Oireachtas, have well-established processes for accountability. Those process are already under way. A motion such as the one before the House is hasty, risks politicising a statutory body and undermines the very scrutiny we all claim to value.

The chair of Bord Bia is due to appear before the Oireachtas agriculture committee tomorrow. I welcome the fact that he is engaging in this process. That is where these matters should be first examined. We should not rush to judgment until we have heard directly from the chair before the committee. That is not avoidance; it is due process. I believe that Mr. Murrin is due that process. Committees exist for a reason. They allow for detailed questioning, for evidence to be put on the record and for members to engage in structured and informed ways. By contrast, a motion brought to the floor of this House before that engagement has taken place risks replacing scrutiny with speculation.

Bord Bia is a statutory agency that has a crucial role to play in supporting Irish food and drink producers, promoting our exports and safeguarding Ireland's reputation in international markets. Decisions taken lightly or rhetoric deployed prematurely can have real consequences not just for board members or the Minister, but also for the farmers, processors and workers across the country. That is why timing matters and hearing from the relevant people also matters. That is why I am concerned about the approach surrounding this motion. Accountability must never become a proxy for pressure or intimidation. If we are serious about governance, we must also be serious about fairness and process.

In that context, I want to address what happened today with the occupation of Bord Bia's offices. That occupation of the offices puts Bord Bia staff in a difficult position. These are workers; they are not decision-makers. They do not set policy and should not be placed in harm's way because of political or sectoral disputes. Whatever concerns people have, they are entitled to raise them. However, there are appropriate forums for doing so and the staff who come to do their jobs should never feel intimidation in their workplace.

Bord Bia is governed by a board, but it is important to note - and this is sometimes overlooked - that the board delegates specific functions relating to particular sectors to subsidiary boards, as provided for under legislation. Under section 13(1) of the Bord Bia Act 1994, subsidiary boards can be established for defined sectors, including meat and livestock. These subsidiary boards have specific responsibilities and remits within the overall structure of Bord Bia. It is, therefore, worth putting on record that the chair is not a member of any of the subsidiary boards, including the meat and livestock board, established under this section of the Act.

That distinction matters. If we are going to have a serious discussion about governance, responsibility and oversight then we must be grounded in the actual statutory framework, not assumptions and headlines. That is precisely why the agriculture committee tomorrow is the correct forum at this stage. It allows members to interrogate those structures, understand who is responsible for what and assess whether changes are needed based on evidence rather than conjecture. None of this is to suggest that Bord Bia should be beyond criticism. No public body is, but criticism must be informed, proportionate and timely. Tabling a motion in the House before the relevant committee has even met the chair risks undermining our credibility as legislators. We should allow the chair to appear tomorrow, listen carefully to what he has to say, test him through questioning and then decide collectively what, if any, further action is warranted. That is how accountability is supposed to work. To do otherwise is to leap ahead of that process and is not what is needed. For those reasons, this motion is premature. I urge colleagues, particularly ahead of tomorrow's discussions, to allow for proper scrutiny mechanisms to their jobs. This debate distracts from core agricultural issues the country faces. Whether the chair goes or stays, we will still face these bigger outstanding issues which need attention. While we squabble over the chair, beef prices are up 25%, families are struggling to feed themselves and farmers cannot survive on what they earn. That is the real headline and what should be in the media.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I welcome this opportunity to discuss Bord Bia. This issue goes beyond any single person or State agency. This issue goes to the heart of how we protect Ireland's reputation as a world-class producer of safe, high-quality food and how we as policymakers ensure the governance structures behind that reputation are robust and transparent. Bord Bia's job is to bring Ireland's produce to the world. That would not be possible without the work of Irish farmers. The success of our food exports is thanks to them and their expertise commitment, energy and hard work. Our farmers adhere to some of the most stringent animal health and welfare and sustainability standards in the world. That is no small feat. Irish farmers meet rigorous criteria that far exceed what is expected in many other markets. Each criterion represents time, cost and responsibility that is carried by farmers to uphold our reputation. Bearing all this in mind, I understand why farmers are frustrated and feel betrayed by what has transpired with the chairperson of Bord Bia. Believing as they do that those high standards are undermined by the actions of the agency charged with promoting them I imagine is a painful sting. The anger they feel comes from the real lived experiences of farmers who play by the rules and invest in higher standards all the while competing in an increasingly difficult global market. I understand that.

I also understand that this controversy does not exist in a vacuum. It sits against the backdrop of the Government's inaction and complacency on trade issues, most notably and most recently Mercosur. For years, farmers have warned that allowing beef from regions with lower environmental and welfare standards into the EU market would undermine the sustainability credentials of Ireland which Irish farmers have worked so hard to promote. They, as so many of us did, repeatedly called on the Government to take a firmer stance and be vocal and active at an EU level in its opposition to this deal, to form an alliance with like-minded states and lobby others to join. The Government had a responsibility to do all it could to fight this deal not only for our farmers but for the Irish public more broadly. Unfortunately, instead it took a passive approach, offering empty statements rather than action, and now Mercosur is as good as here. The Government seriously let farmers, the environment and the public down. I and others are deeply disappointed by that.

However, this motion asks us to support the removal of the chairperson of Bord Bia. While I support and understand the concerns, disappointment and fear farmers have about what the future holds for them, I cannot support that call. That would be an extreme step, especially considering that he has yet to appear before the agriculture committee to discuss this issue face to face and at length. I cannot support a decision like this before hearing those discussions and hearing back from committee members. As was stated previously, there are processes that should be followed. There is a way of doing business. The committee should have an opportunity to interrogate and ask the questions they need answers to. All that is not to say there is nothing to see here. This controversy points to a deeper systemic issue in Ireland, which is the governance structures of our State agencies. We need to interrogate those structures and ask if they are sufficiently aligned with the expectations of their sectors and if accountability measures are fit for purpose. Farmers deserve clarity on this and a governance structure that reflects the values Bord Bia is meant to uphold. While I cannot currently support the specific call in the motion to remove the chairperson, I support the need for serious scrutiny and reform across our agrifood agencies. We need Government agencies that people and workers can trust. Farmers have done their part and it is time the Government did its part.

Deputy Michael Collins

I welcome all the farmers in the Gallery. They have been out protesting for the past week. It is thanks to democracy in this country that they can do so in very difficult circumstances for quite a lot of those farmers. I welcome that they are here tonight. They are carrying out their basic human rights to put food on the table - good clean Irish food - as they have done for the past decades. That is being challenged every day of the week now for the past few years. Tonight we stand firmly with the farmers of Ireland who should not have to be up in the Gallery of this House. They should be at home running their farms, not sitting here looking down on us, waiting for decisions that should have been made long ago.

Last week, I stood with IFA members outside Bord Bia headquarters where protests have continued day and night. Their message is clear: their confidence in Bord Bia has been deeply damaged. The controversy around the sourcing of Brazilian beef has only widened the divide between farmers and those meant to promote their produce. It does not stop there. We import over 740,000 tonnes of low-quality, poorly traceable Mercosur feed, undermining our own fully traceable Irish grain sector. We all know now that Brazilian beef treated with carcinogenic hormones entered the Irish food chain, and the Mercosur deal would also allow in up to 180,000 tonnes of poultry produced under weaker standards. What about the children of this country? Is this the standard we are willing to accept for them, a food chain where banned carcinogenic hormones have already entered Ireland through imported Brazilian beef and where more cheaply produced meat could follow under Mercosur? Parents expect the Government to protect their families, not expose them to risks created by weaker import controls. On top of that, imported British straw is risking the spread of blackgrass, a destructive weed that could devastate Irish tillage land if allowed to take hold. These farmers have been raising concerns for weeks. Their protest escalated to the point of occupying Bord Bia headquarters, driven by deep frustration at what they describe as inaction, warning that each day this drags on further erodes their confidence in the organisation. They should not have to be here tonight. They should not have to sit in the Gallery looking down on this Chamber, waiting for basic respect and common sense. They have far better things to be doing like running the farms that keep the country fed, employed and sustained. Farmers meet some of the strictest environmental welfare, safety and traceability standards in Europe, yet they are undercut by foreign feed, exposed to banned hormones entering our food chain, threatened by invasive weeds and let down by delays in updating rules that could protect Irish products and jobs. Their patience is exhausted.

I ask the Government, when did it become anti-Irish and so anti-farmer? That is how farmers feel - abandoned, ignored and undermined. They should not have to protest outside Bord Bia and occupy the office and they certainly should not have to spend their evenings in the Dáil begging for fairness. It is long past time for Government to truly listen and act decisively in support of Irish farmers, Irish beef, poultry and grain and Ireland's future and immediately remove the chair of Bord Bia.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate. I welcome the farmers from the farming bodies around the country. There are a few things we need to put into perspective. Farmers contribute €6 million to Bord Bia.

No one is knocking every part of Bord Bia. No one is doing that. There is a job for everyone to do. We are great at telling the story, and it is great to hear about the volume of exports each year.

I have carried out an analysis in respect of sheep. We do not hear that part of it. In 2022, we exported €475 million worth. In 2023, the figure was down by €35 million. In 2024, it dropped to €400 million. It is now down to €360 million. Not only are there fewer sheep, there is less money coming into the country. We do not hear that story.

Let us be honest. Milk prices were good last year. I compared cattle prices in 2023 with those on offer now. There was a difference of €2.50 or €3. Is that because we have experts, heroes or the greatest people running things? It is not. The fact is that Red Tractor in England was able to get 20 cent more for its beef than we got for ours. In Germany, and throughout Europe, the average price was €7.70. I am not saying that someone is doing something wrong. This is about supply and demand and the number of cattle. We lost 250 suckler cows because farmers were sick of pulling calves, and the weanlings were not getting a good price. That is the bottom line. Farmers vote with their feet.

Farmers put €6 million towards Bord Bia, and the Government gives money as well. There is legality and morality. Ultimately, if you lose the dressing room, you have a problem. I have not spoken to any farmer in the past two weeks who told me that they have confidence in the situation that has developed. If farmers have lost confidence, that is a problem. We rely on the farmers of this country to produce food of the highest quality. They even have to make sure a cat is vaccinated when there is a Bord Bia audit. They have to make sure that the dog is looked after. They have to make sure that the spraying machines and power take-off shafts are right. They do that to make sure that the Irish food that is being exported is a quality product and has the emblem on it. A wider debate has to take place on food labelling in this country and throughout Europe.

We are looking at what is coming in and what is going out. This is not just about beef; it is also about pork and chicken. We have to do a lot of research on this. As I said, there are ethical, legal and moral factors involved. We can talk about this until the cows come home, but if people lose hope in something, that is a problem.

Let us be honest about it. If I go to a trade fair in Europe as the captain of the ship charged with promoting something, there may be a story behind me, rightly or wrongly, that 99% of what I have came through Europe and the other 1% came from one of the Mercosur countries. The problem in that regard is that there are questions as to traceability, medicines and hormones. What is happening has been proved to us by the Irish Farmers Journal. Fear and doubt enters people's minds. Tracking through companies and what is happening is like trying to go out into the world to discover where someone lives. Tomorrow will be an interesting day. When the farmers of the country who produce the finest food lose faith in somebody, we, as politicians, have to listen.

Deputy Paul Lawless

I want to welcome the farmers who are here today. I thank all the farmers who raised their concerns with my office. The fact is that farmers are hurt by the fact that they are subjected to strict regulations and rules by Bord Bia and are paying it €6 million a year. The latter is in addition to the taxpayers' money that is going into Bord Bia. They then learn that the person driving the ship of an organisation that is driving regulation, that is continually pushing standards and that is contributing to the inflation of standards in the food sector is the importing beef that would never qualify under those regulations. That is why the board and the chair have lost the confidence of farmers. Frankly, farmers are frustrated by the Minister's response to this.

There are serious questions about food labelling, particularly that relating to beef, poultry, pigs and fish, in this country. We must address those questions and ensure that the country of origin is inserted on the packaging of all food sold here.

Who chaired the meeting of the board on 22 June? Was it the case that the person who is the chair, that is, Larry Murrin, chaired a meeting on whether he would continue in his role?

Deputy Martin Heydon

No.

Deputy Paul Lawless

Did he step out of the meeting, given what was obviously a conflict of interest? That must be addressed here.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The answer is "No". It is not an issue.

Deputy Paul Lawless

We need a full investigation into how many tonnes of Brazilian beef are coming in. I do not believe that Larry Murrin is the only individual or business bringing Brazilian beef into this country. We need to have a serious investigation into this matter, not just in the beef sector but right across the board in respect of the food that is coming into Ireland and Europe. What is being imported would never satisfy the regulations policed by Bord Bia or allowed under the organisation's quality assurance schemes. Farmers and consumers across Ireland are extremely frustrated by the double standards at play. If the Minister cannot see that, I ask him to wake up.

Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty

In principle, I support the motion because if you have lost the confidence of the farmers whose produce you are trying to promote, then the writing is on the wall. Mr. Murrin will, I understand, be making a presentation to a committee tomorrow. We have to listen to what he has to say. I am conscious that the vote on the motion will not be taken tonight in any event.

I am reserving judgment on this matter, particularly as we are not talking about Peter Mandelson giving away state secrets or a child molester like Jeffrey Epstein. We are talking about someone whose company is importing Brazilian beef. Obviously, there are questions, as others have said, about Brazilian beef, including in the context of banned hormones, traceability and the environmental impact, which is why, on balance, I support the calls, on the basis of environmental grounds in particular, not to implement the Mercosur deal. There is a certain amount of hypocrisy and grandstanding involved here.

Let the man speak tomorrow and see what he has to say. The pressure might take a toll, but we have to put it into context. Ultimately, if you do not have people's confidence, then the writing is on the wall. He may have to make the decision in that regard himself. Let us give him a week or so and see what happens.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I welcome the farmers from all over the country who are here for this debate. I particularly welcome those from the Offaly branch of the IFA.

No amount of verbal or procedural gymnastics that the Government engages in can hide the plain fact of the matter, namely that there is an open, glaring and festering contradiction at the heart of this dispute. There is hypocrisy and there are double standards. Irish farmers and their representative organisations have lost confidence in the chairperson of Bord Bia as a result of his company's role in importing Brazilian beef into Ireland. Larry Murrin continuing as chairperson of Bord Bia undermines public confidence in the organisation.

It damages Ireland's reputation as a world leader producing food that adheres to world-class standards - the highest standards in the world, in fact. I am not interested in knee-jerk reactions; I am interested in a solution and in putting an end to this before further damage is caused to our reputation here in Ireland. I am not interested in kangaroo courts or anything else, but the longer this goes on the worse the damage will be. As I stated recently, Offaly IFA members as well as farmers throughout this country are really at a loss to understand how Bord Bia is failing to grasp the untenable nature of chairman Larry Murrin's position. We have another Larry causing problems in the beef sector. Can we just put an end to this now and call on Larry Murrin to resign? That would be the right, the honourable and the respectful thing to do for our farmers.

The issue here is not about the volume of beef; it is the blatant contradiction in terms of food standards promotion and the institutional attitude of Bord Bia, which amounts to telling farmers and Irish producers, "Do as we say, not as we do." It is, as I said, the height of hypocrisy. Farmers, the Government and all the agrifood agencies need to be pulling in the one direction. We need unity. A protracted and contentious standoff, particularly where further reputational damage is likely, cannot be allowed to develop. The Government and Bord Bia would do well to heed the lessons that farmers have imposed on the EU recently with respect to Mercosur. The message was very clear that the farmers were not for turning then, and they are certainly not for turning now. Let us sort this out and let us make sure that Larry Murrin resigns and that we put a credible person in Bord Bia to steer the ship quickly.

Deputy Michael Cahill

It is fair to say there is huge disquiet with regard to this issue. Farmers across the country, and indeed at home in Kerry, are very angry. It is fair to say we pride ourselves on the quality of our beef and the high standards we set. Farmers have been subjected to onerous inspections regularly. I appreciate that there have been a number of calls for the chairman of Bord Bia to resign. I think the right thing to do at this stage is to wait and see what develops tomorrow at the agriculture committee meeting, but it is important to say that there is huge anger out there with regard to this issue. It is a shame that it has come to this following so closely on the Mercosur deal and vote. Tensions are high at the moment. I just hope for all our sakes that this comes to the right conclusion. I am already looking forward to attending the meeting tomorrow and hearing Mr. Murrin.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

All the farmers from around the country are very welcome here tonight. I know they have all been very anxious and upset for the past number of weeks. What has happened is not fair. We know that the same standards do not apply in Brazil as apply here. I myself and my young fellas are farmers and we know what inspections are like. We worry about the TB test and the Bord Bia inspections, and then you can have an inspection out of the blue. We know what it means to be on the right side and to have everything in the right place. If you have a tag missing or if you have a drive off a tractor or it is only half on or whatever, you will not get your approval. It seems very wrong to me that produce can be put into a restaurant, or whatever it was, and it is stated that it is 99% Irish beef and 1% Brazilian beef. The first question arises there. Is our Irish beef contaminated by that 1% that went through no inspection and landed here into the food chain? I know that all the farmers in the Gallery, like me, go to funerals evening after evening. Many people die of old age and many people die from accidents. They die from different things, but cancer is the predominant thing people are dying from. We do not know what causes it but we have our part to play in this country to ensure we have good food and the highest standard possible. I am afraid we are losing that traceability and that expertise we had. We always heard that one bad apple will ruin the pack. It looks to me like we had and still have the fox minding the chickens.

When people go to court, we always hear that the judge and the jury have their minds 50% or 60% made up as to whether or not the lad will be convicted. I will wait until tomorrow to finally decide but I am fairly sure that all the people I have talked to, like many of the people up in the Gallery, are saying that this man will have to go. I will decide finally tomorrow. I am a member of the agriculture committee. I am proud to be a member of it because it does great work. We believe we are doing a great job and we want to continue doing that. We have very important positions to take and decisions to make tomorrow and we will finally make those.

I am very hurt at what has happened for the people I represent. I love going into their yards to talk about inspections and all the different things in farming, whether it is the weather, the price of animals or whatever it is. I want to be able to do that and to face the farmers head-on anytime because I came up here to do my best for them, as I do for all the other sectors of people I am proud to represent from the county of Kerry. I will make up my mind finally tomorrow but, like I said, this is a very worrying thing. The good word we have had about our produce and Bord Bia monitoring is all being jeopardised by this episode. From what investigations I have done and carried out, it has been made known to me that this particular individual was at this over 20 years ago, taking beef from Naas down to Midleton to put it into cold storage, the same beef we are talking about, Brazilian beef. I am seriously concerned to know, first of all, that he was appointed to such an important position as he is fulfilling at the minute. I, like all the other Members, am very concerned about it. There is a big onus on our shoulders tomorrow to listen and to account for everything that is said and goes on in there. I would not be anywhere else in the world and will ensure that whatever role I play will be on behalf of the farmers up in the Gallery, the farmers around the country and especially the farmers from Kerry, from Slea Head all the way over to the Cork county bounds. I will do that tomorrow.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Michael Healy-Rae)

I acknowledge the presence of the president of the IFA, Francie Gorman, as well as Kathleen Herlihy and all the chairpersons of the different counties representing the IFA; John Joe Fitzgerald from the INHFA; the other organisations around the country watching in tonight; the ICMSA; and all the people who represent farmers.

When I am speaking here tonight, and I am addressing people sincerely, I am here as a member of the Government, but I am also here as a lifelong member of the IFA, a thing I am very proud of. I paid my membership when it was a troublesome thing to pay it. Like all of you, when you would have had a bill, you would be saying what will I pay and what will I not pay. I am also speaking as a person. I hear an awful lot of people opposite me talking about Bord Bia inspections. To be honest, they would not know a bull from a heifer, a lot of them, and they definitely would not know what a Bord Bia audit was. I do.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Stop your blackguarding.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I do, 100%.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Stop your blackguarding now.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I can guarantee you one thing: being subject to Bord Bia audits is a worrying thing.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Most of us are farmers-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is a thing you are concerned about. I just want to say I have great respect for the IFA, and its members know that. The Minister alluded to it earlier when we were out at the organisation's 71st AGM, which we were very glad to be at and to be put through our paces, and rightly so, by the president and others from all the sectors of the IFA. That is our job. We are there to work for you and to represent you. I cherish IFA membership. I do have to say that one thing I will never do is mislead anybody. If the IFA wants me to give my honest opinion about this situation, if the IFA is hitching its trailer to Sinn Féin's wagon, that worries me. I will tell you why it worries me.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I will tell you why it worries me.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Will you stand your ground? Will you stand up for farmers?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

No, you see-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You stood your ground on Mercosur.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Did I shout at any of you?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Stand your ground now.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Can people see now what is happening?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

When I am trying to genuinely talk, you are shouting me down.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Not at all.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Did I try to shout you down?

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption.

Deputy Martin Heydon

It is a deliberate attack.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Have a small bit of manners, please.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Stop your codding.

Deputy Martin Heydon

It is a deliberate attack by Sinn Féin.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption, please.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Try to use up my time, do. You do not like what I am going to say-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----but I will continue saying it.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

We are sticking up for the farmers.

Deputy Martin Kenny

You are a waffler.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

A waffler? I will tell you about waffling. Deputy Kenny made a statement earlier on.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Yes.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

He made a statement. He said this Government had to be brought kicking and dragging over Mercosur. A lot he knows about it. Did he read the programme for Government-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

Ah now.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----which was written 13 months ago?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Ah, for God's sake.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

What did it say? It clearly said that this Government was going to vote against Mercosur-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

Two days before, the Taoiseach said we would vote for it.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

That is right.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----and it was going to work with like-minded countries. A lot of work Deputy Kenny did on it. What did he do about it? He mouthed. He went on Facebook. I want to tell the IFA a thing about Sinn Féin and what it is doing.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Deal with the issue.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Deal with the issue.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Its members wake up in the morning, wet their fingers, see which way the wind is blowing and they go that way.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Ah now, stop codding people.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The other thing is that they live for Facebook. Their governance is Facebook.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

You are on social media all the time. Deal with the issue.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Their governance is that they get up in the morning, wet their finger, see what way the wind is blowing and that is Sinn Féin policy for the day.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

The Government-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You never use Facebook or Twitter, do you?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The IFA is hitching itself to its wagons. The killing thing about it is-----

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption now, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----that the IFA membership up and down the length and breadth of the country who I am listening to-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Stop your deflecting-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----and who I am talking to know what this crowd are at. They are using you.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You are insulting their intelligence.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Why are you shouting me down?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Mac Lochlainn, please.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You are only a messer-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is because I am telling the truth. You do not want to hear what I am saying. Will the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach call for order and keep my time?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Without interruption, thank you.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The other thing I want to say, because I want to call another thing out, is that when I hear-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

If you-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Bennett, please respect the House.

Deputy Noel Grealish

Without interruption.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Would I interrupt you? I would not dare.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Minister of State was the chief interrupter in the last Dáil.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Mac Lochlainn, will you please stop?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

That-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Mac Lochlainn, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am going to tackle another thing, and I am talking to Kerry IFA now. I heard a man speaking with great authority, and I am sorry he is not here now, and that is my colleague, Deputy Pa Daly.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I heard him talking with authority about Kerry IFA. Well, I can tell you one thing, he would have to put Gortatlea mart into Google Maps to find his way there because I never met him there. I never met him at an IFA meeting going back over three decades, 30 years, of going to IFA meetings in Kerry-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

Seriously.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----and then he goes lecturing here tonight.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We are talking about the chair of Bord Bia.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Go back to Bord Bia. We are discussing Bord Bia.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

You see, you do not like what I am saying because what I am saying is hurting.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Bennett, please. The Minister of State, without interruption, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

All you are doing is wetting your finger.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You are only codding people.

Deputy Thomas Gould

You sold your soul.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am telling the truth.

Deputy Thomas Gould

You sold your soul and you sold out the farming community-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

At least I have a soul and a heart.

Deputy Thomas Gould

You sold your soul.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Gould, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am speaking from the heart, if you did not interrupt me, about what we need on this whole issue. That is why I welcome tomorrow. My brother is right when he says the work that the agriculture committee does is good-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Actually, next week, we are-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----because I was in before it today answering questions. Do you know what? Deputy Kenny's questions left a lot to be desired because he did not know what he was talking about. He asked me about schemes that he should have known about. He did not have a clue.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Ha ha.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Deal with this issue.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is no harm to expose that to the IFA.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We are talking about the chair of Bord Bia.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Deputy Kenny did not know what he was talking about.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

There he goes again.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

I am sure the Minister of State-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State to continue without interruption now, please.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We are dealing with Bord Bia. Come back to the issue.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Minister of State has not once dealt with the core issue. Should he stay or should he go?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Mac Lochlainn, please respect the Chair.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I welcome what is going to happen tomorrow. I welcome that there is going to be dialogue. What the Minister wanted all along was for people to sit down and have dialogue. I do not like what has happened over the last week and I will tell you why. I am going to tell the IFA leadership why I do not like it. The most genuine people in the world are at a protest-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Too late.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----at a time when they should be at home because they have enough to be doing at home at this time of the year.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am sorry we are in this situation, but how it could have been handled was by dialogue, not by entrenchment and not by people saying it has to be this way, like Sinn Féin said it has to be a head and it has to be this and it has to be that.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Seriously.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

We stopped fighting and killing each other above in the North by dialogue and by talking, and I recognise 100% the good work Sinn Féin did in that regard, in dialogue, in talking, in negotiating and in using the political system. What I would have liked to have seen happen over the last week was talking and not this entrenchment, because this is getting-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

There is no dispute on this issue. This man imported Brazilian beef. Was he wrong?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Kenny, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

-----because that is getting the farmers of Ireland nowhere. Again, I am saying this not as a person with my finger wet, like these people across here.

I had to listen to another lady a while ago from the Social Democrats talking about farmers in Ireland. She is the woman who, when the Minister brought over Commissioner Roswall about the nitrates derogation and extending it, stood up at a meeting, and Mr. Gorman from the IFA was there and heard what she said, and tried to undermine and sabotage the nitrates derogation the Minister was trying to get extended on the farmers' behalf. We then have a politician here paying lip service to the farmers, the same as these people are.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Double standards.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Ah, for God's sake, cop yourself on.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

I call the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I ask the farmers to see what they are seeing tonight and see the people who are working for them, the people who want to work with them and to represent them.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

We are their servants. We are there to work for the farmers of Ireland, and not this type of nonsense, this rubbish of throwing down a motion. It is like they put down a motion about leprechauns.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

You are only a codder. You are only bluffing and codding-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

See them for what they are doing - rubbish and nonsense, and they know I mean that.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I do know what it is like to be up at 3 o'clock in the morning with calving.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

A lot you know.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

I call the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, to finish. Members, please.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I do know what it is like to be subject to Bord Bia reports. I do.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

I call the Minister of State to finish.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

We are not all-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Ah sure, keep rabbiting on.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

I do know what it is like.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Newsome Drennan, would you please respect the Chair? I call the Minister of State to respond.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Timmy Dooley)

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach.

Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan

That was a great performance. I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

All his time was taken up.

Deputy Martin Heydon

He is entitled to his time, because you interrupted him.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Minister of State, Deputy Healy-Rae, and I cut our teeth in student politics 35 years ago. I learned a lesson back then and it is equally worthy today. Never be speaking after him, because you will certainly not outdo his capacity to hold an audience and hold people to account. I do not bear any ill will against Sinn Féin for taking an opportunity like this. Maybe we have all done it in opposition.

Deputy Martin Kenny

It is not an opportunity, for God's sake.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

We are standing up for farmers.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

The Minister of State, without interruption, please.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I grew up on a small farm in the west of Ireland. I know what survival is like. I know what difficulties and issues faced a farming community.

Deputy Martin Kenny

So do we.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

So do people on this side of the House.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I do not mean this in any kind of an over-the-top way, but I do not need anyone in this House, from this side or the other, to lecture me about the struggles farming is facing.

Deputy Martin Kenny

No, we will go to the issue so.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Also, over that protracted period of time, I have come to see how successive governments have supported the farming sector and how it is a different place now from what it was 40, 45 or 50 years ago. I also know there is a much different approach now to marketing our beef abroad and that the integrated nature of the supply chain and the complexities of it are very different from the kind of abattoirs, the kind of butchering and the kind of processing that existed back then. It is a hell of a lot more complex. Some of the language I heard tonight from the Opposition would seem to me to suggest that it has a way to go, and this is not lecturing, in understanding how complex the supply chain is now-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

That is a bit patronising.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----how the requirements of the customer are very different-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

They want Bord Bia certification.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----and the way in which markets are provided for.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

They want it Bord Bia-certified.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is for another day, however. It is not for us.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Brazilian beef is central to the Irish market, is it?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I would expect that tomorrow, when he comes before the committee-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

The customer does not want Brazilian beef.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----Mr. Murrin will be well able to explain the complexities of the supply chain-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

I hope he will.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----and the complexities of meeting the demands and needs of a changing marketplace. It is not all about carcasses moving to and fro.

We have heard about the remarkable growth in the value of agrifood exports over the last decade and more from an export value of €10 billion in 2011 to an estimated €21 billion in 2025. That figure is a truly a record. Our export destinations are well balanced between the EU, the UK and international markets. We all know the importance of market diversification in these volatile geopolitical times. We also know that Bord Bia has played a key role in that success. We have heard about its success in promoting our top-quality food and drink overseas. Like the Minister of State, Deputy Grealish, I have witnessed this at first hand on trade missions and at trade fairs. I certainly concur with his view of the excellent teams on the ground. I was recently in the position of political leadership of a mission to China. It was principally about fish but it was also about beef, offal and green offal. I saw the work that had been done under the guidance of the chairman and chief executive to put in place teams on the ground that were speaking in Mandarin, engaging with customers and bringing them to political events. I saw how well regarded Bord Bia was. That does not happen by accident. It is easy to suggest that you can isolate one individual and call for a head and for summary judgment so that you can get it done and move on. If the Government or some other body were to follow through on that approach, it would have implications. It would send the message that there was an issue at the core of the quality of Irish beef. It would bring into question the very standards that put farmers to the pin of their collar.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Nobody is questioning the quality.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Farmers talk to me regularly about the exactness and complexity of these standards and the challenges they present. If the people at the top of Bord Bia were to exit, those very standards would be questioned in third countries, markets outside of Ireland.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Farmers set the standards. Farmers are paying the price.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

You do not care about us. Give us Brazilian beef.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

While we might think we would have a handle on this debate and know what was going on, we do not know how it would be translated-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

So all the Government cares about is the exports, not the imports.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----by some of our competitors. Can the Deputies imagine how the delivery of a head, as Sinn Féin has been demanding of the Minister, Deputy Heydon, would be presented by those countries that seek to compete with us in international markets? They would say there was a problem with Irish beef and with the standards.

Deputy Martin Kenny

There is.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

There is a problem with the-----

Deputy Timmy Dooley

They would say there was a problem with the agency.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Government is the problem.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

They would undermine us. That would open up an entirely new front.

Deputy Cathy Bennett

They could say there was a proper Government in place.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I suspect that, within a number of weeks, we would have another motion from Sinn Féin, this one saying the Minister did wrong and hanged the wrong man and telling him to look at the negative consequences. It is sometimes easy to call for a head and to rush to judgment.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Did he not-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

Bord Bia-certified means something to everyone.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

However, when you have the privilege, responsibility and burden of government, you always have to think things through.

Deputy Martin Kenny

So, Larry Murrin did not import Brazilian beef.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

You have to make sure the decisions that you take on behalf of the Irish people-----

Deputy Martin Kenny

It is one or the other. He either imported it or he did not.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

-----are in the best interests of the people we seek to serve. I cannot accept that Sinn Féin holds dear farmers and those communities any more than I do or the other people on this side of the House do.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Bord Bia's mission statement states "We champion responsible food production" and that it promises to show Irish food in a way that is "inspirational, empowering, and exciting." Those are beautiful words. At the same time, the man at the top is bringing beef in from Brazil and the Government thinks that is all right. The Government tried to sell Irish farmers down the river with the Mercosur deal. Two Sinn Féin MEPs in Europe put a stop to it. At the last minute, the Government came out to say it would vote against it. For years, it did nothing to protect the farmers. At the same time, while it is making promises to the IFA and the farming community, it is supporting the head of the IFA bringing in Brazilian beef. It is an absolute disgrace.

I am shocked at Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. He is a man who says he has stood up for farmers all of his life. He is now standing here to defend a man who is bringing in Brazilian beef. Is your junior Ministry so important that you would deny the people who voted for you? Is this what we get from the Lowry and Healy-Rae Independents? Do they sell their vote to the highest bidder?

I worked in a dairy years ago when I was a young fella. I am from Knocknaheeny in the heart of the city but I worked in Ballinahina dairies with Michael Buckley. I saw farmers coming in to do the night shift before going out to milk the cattle and run the farm. They were working 14 and 16 hours a day. I have seen them. I worked there for years. As a fella from the city, I understood how hard farmers worked. Until you work with people in the farming community, you do not get it. The Government Members have come in here tonight to attack Sinn Féin. It is always about attacking Sinn Féin. They are attacking those in the Gallery, the IFA and the farming community, people who have given their lives up. When the Government Members criticise us, they criticise every farmer, every farm family and the rural community, which depends on Irish beef. We have one of the greatest products in the world and the Government wants to dilute it. It wants to let the Brazilians come in here. It wants to let the head of the IFA bring it in.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Bord Bia.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I am sorry; I meant Bord Bia.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

You might clarify that because Francie Gorman would be cross with Brazilian beef.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I have to say this, Deputy Healy-Rae.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

Deputy Gould is over time. I call Deputy Johnny Mythen.

Deputy Thomas Gould

No, let me just finish.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

No, you are out of time.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Does the Minister think it is right-----

Deputy Cathy Bennett

The Ministers of State were given four and half minutes extra.

Deputy Thomas Gould

-----that the head of Bord Bia can bring in Brazilian beef? It is a straight question for the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

This is not a back and forth.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Is it right that the head of Bord Bia can bring in Brazilian beef and keep his job? Does the Minister think that is right? It is a straight question.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Will Deputy Gould retract his statement about Francie Gorman?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I am sure the Minister will agree that the chairman of Bord Bia is responsible for upholding accountability, managing conflicts of interest and maintaining high ethical standards. Surely, if the chairman of Bord Bia is importing Brazilian beef through his own company, that is a conflict of interest and a breach of ethical standards. This is a serious matter. It is a matter of utmost importance to the reputation of Ireland's food and drink exports and our domestic market. Bord Bia holds Irish farmers to some of the highest and most stringent standards and conditions in the world through its sustainable quality assurance scheme. The same Irish farmers are now insisting that the chairman of the board meet the same standards and leave his post. His position has become untenable and has undermined public confidence. The longer he remains, the more damage will be done to Bord Bia and to Ireland's reputation as the producer of the highest quality meat and drinks in Europe, if not the world.

Bord Bia's code of ethics should require that stakeholders and the reputation of our meat, drinks and horticulture be protected to make them the best on the world markets. The Minister must recognise that the backbone of our beef, drink and food industries are the farmers and small producers. He must also recognise that the primary link between the Minister and his Department and the board is the chairman himself. This raises the question of whether the Minister was aware of the chairman's company using Brazilian beef as raw material for products it supplies. By anyone's standards, this is a conflict of interest and a breach of ethical standards.

As one farmer in my own county of Wexford put it, if the manager has lost the dressing room, it is time to go. That is the case here. The stakes are high. The reputation of our beef and food industries is on the line. We call on the Minister to do the right thing. He has the power to do so under section 18(1) of the An Bord Bia Act. Now is the time to stand firmly behind our Irish farmers. I ask all TDs to support this motion tonight.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

We need to state the facts straightforwardly. Larry Murrin is chair of Bord Bia. Bord Bia has done a fine job in marketing food, drink and horticulture from Ireland. However, let us also be clear that Larry Murrin is the co-founder and CEO of Dawn Farms. Am I correct in believing that Dawn Farms imported Brazilian beef into Ireland?

I do not think there is any question about that. How can someone not see that this is a huge conflict of interest in the context of trying to sell and market goods and wares on the basis of the work done by the farmers in the Gallery and throughout the country? I am talking about farmers in Knockbridge, Kilkerley, Sheelagh, Omeath, Reaghstown and other areas across County Louth.

I did not grow up on a farm, but my father did. I worked on many farms. My uncle is a farmer and my cousins are farmers. This is not Sinn Féin deciding that Larry Murrin needs to go. Farmers were on to us, as they were on to the IFA and other organisations, to say that it is not okay to import Brazilian beef, that doing so is an absolute conflict of interest and that we are talking about marketing Irish beef.

The Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, spoke about dangers in the future. There will be reputational damage done by the chair of Bord Bia taking in Brazilian beef. In fairness, the Minister of State, Deputy Healy-Rae, stood up in relation to the Mercosur deal. I know he is under pressure this evening. He stood up in respect of the Mercosur deal and, at the last minute, the Government decided it would, sort of, oppose it.

Deputy Martin Heydon

A whole year-----

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

Let us be clear about what it is going to do. We also met Commissioners Piotr Serafin and Christophe Hansen, and we know the dangers of provisional application. I have not seen what the Government will do to oppose Mercosur or deal with the possibility of more Brazilian beef, with hormones and antibiotics and without the traceability that applies to Irish beef, being imported here. That is what we need to see.

The Minister, Deputy Heydon, said that explaining global food supply chains and contingency planning does not make for good social media clips. Does this contingency planning include the importation of Brazilian beef? The chair has to go. What happened is unacceptable, and the Government has been a disgrace.

Deputy Martin Kenny

This has been a heated debate, and that is fine. We debate matters robustly in order to make progress, so let us make a little of progress. There are a couple of things that are not disputed. Beef from Brazil has a lot of problems. The system in Brazil is different. The Irish Government opposed the Mercosur deal. We can debate whether it was as wholehearted in doing so as we would have liked, but it did oppose the deal because it recognised - and we take its word for this - that the beef coming from Brazil does not meet the standards that European consumers should expect. There is no dispute about that.

The head of Bord Bia imported Brazilian beef that does not meet these standards. That is not in dispute either. He is not coming here tomorrow to tell us whether or not he imported Brazilian beef. We know he did so. We know he has used it as part of his contingency planning, as the Minister outlined. If the contingency planning for the marketing of Irish beef is to mix Brazilian beef in with it, then the Government needs to start being honest with Irish farmers. Is that what the Minister is saying? The Minister seems to have said that we are not listening to the common-sense explanation as to why some Brazilian beef would have to be used in order to gain access to particular markets. That is a dangerous Rubicon to cross. That is the reality. There is a red line that Larry Murrin has crossed. As the chair of Bord Bia, the organisation charged with marketing Irish food, drink and horticulture of the finest quality to which the quality assurance mark is attached and with whose standards Irish farmers have to comply, it is unacceptable that he would also run a company that is buying, processing and selling Brazilian beef, which is possibly contaminated, mixed with Irish beef.

If the Minister does not understand the huge impact of this when it comes to the farmers of this country and to consumers across Europe and around the world, he does not understand the issue we are dealing with. We on this side of the House are not looking for a head or trying to make political capital; we are looking at reality. The reality is that the person in charge of marketing Irish food cannot also be selling-----

Deputy Martin Heydon

You are superseding the very committee you will sit on tomorrow. You are superseding the work of that committee.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister knows this motion was submitted last week, before the committee's decision was made for Larry Murrin to come in. The vote on this motion will not be held until next week. There will be a full week after we hear from Larry Murrin tomorrow to digest what he says, ask further questions and deal with this issue. The Minister and his backbenchers, many of whom, including from his party, have told me privately that they are extremely unhappy with the position the Minister has taken, have a week to decide what way they will vote. I am confident that if they are true to themselves and to the farmers of the country, they will vote to ensure that Larry Murrin is removed from his position.

Deputies

Hear, hear

Amendment put.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy John Paul O'Shea)

In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is deferred until the weekly division time next week.

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