Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Apr 2026

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National Milk Agency: Engagement with Chairperson Designate

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

Before we begin, I bring to everyone's attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by them outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

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The first session for today's meeting is to engage with the chairperson designate of the National Milk Agency, Mr. Jackie Cahill. He is joined by Dr. Muiris Ó Céidigh, chief executive officer. Tá fáilte roimh an bheirt acu. The opening statement has been circulated. I will give Mr. Cahill five minutes to present it, and then we will have four minutes per member.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

It is not my first time at this side of the table. I used to be at this side of the table a good bit before I went into national politics. It is strange to be back in the committee rooms here. I was on the board of the National Milk Agency when it was set up in 1995, while wearing another hat in the ICMSA.

The National Milk Agency was established on 30 December 1994 under the Milk (Regulation of Supply) Act to regulate the supply of milk for liquid consumption throughout the State. As legislation seeking to conserve the sustainability of the product of fresh milk, it was before its time. The key feature of the Act is to maintain adequate compensation to producers. The establishment in Ireland in 1994 of a statutory body to regulate the national supply of liquid milk in the State was a unique Irish statutory intervention in the context of the EU common milk market. The creation of the agency provided the State, at no cost to the Exchequer, with a national regulatory body for the supply of milk for processing for liquid consumption in the State, which was funded jointly by processors and producers, governed by representatives of industry stakeholders with an independent chairman and staffed by public servants.

The funding of the operating costs of the agency is by way of a levy paid by processors and producers. The current rate of the levy, which has been approved by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, is 0.155 of a cent per litre of milk. The agency in the performance of its functions as a regulator of milk supplies maintains registers of producers, processors and milk supply contracts between processors and producers. Contracts are registered annually by the agency if, in the opinion of the agency, the contract provides adequate compensation to the producer for raw milk supplied under the contract. The legislation which established the agency provided for the exemption of imports from regulation by the agency in compliance with EU free movement of goods regulations. Fresh milk is not generally available in Europe. Irish people miss it when they are abroad. This is particularity true of consumption of tea and so on. The continued availability is important as it is purchased each week and used every day by consumers. If it was to become unavailable it would be a serious policy issue.

I have been appointed as the new chair of the National Milk Agency, following on from Mr. Denis Murphy, who resigned on 30 December 2025 having been in the role since 1994. The opening statement contains a summary of the different positions I have held through a fairly active life in both farmer politics and national politics. I am not going to go down through them now. I am delighted to be here today and am willing to answer any questions the committee may have.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Cahill is very welcome; it is good to have him here. Before I open it up to the members, I have one or two very quick questions myself. We met the Agri-Food Regulator some time ago. I am trying to get a handle on where Mr. Cahill might see any future co-operation between the board and the Agri-Food Regulator. I have one other question about people who do not have contracts and who might be supplying on a smaller scale.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

The Agri-Food Regulator has been set up in the recent past. The chief executive officer might further expand.

I am aware, however, that a meeting is to be arranged in the very near future between ourselves and the regulator to discuss where the industry is at at the moment. Producers have huge concerns at the moment. They are being hit with a tsunami. They are facing a drop in the retail price, increases in the cost of production and a falling milk price. There is huge pressure on the producer. We have seen retailers pushing down the price of dairy products on the shelves. That is something the regulator is going to have to address.

It is not the job of the agency to set the prices. It is the job of the agency to ensure that there is adequate compensation for producers. At the end of the day, retailers have a responsibility here. As an agency, we will be writing to retailers and pointing out the difficulties producers are under at the moment. There has to be a recognition that the cost of production has to be covered. At the moment, pressure is coming from all sides on that. We will be having that discussion with the regulator and seeing what the regulator feels is the way forward for that. They have to look at the retailers and the margin. Everyone along the food chain has to get a margin. We will be meeting the regulator and discussing that.

All milk that is sold as liquid and is produced in the State is covered by contract by the agency. There is no one outside that fold. Strathroy is a major player in the industry but at present, that milk is regarded as Northern Ireland milk and is not covered by the agency. All milk that is produced in the State and sold as liquid is covered by contract by the agency.

An Cathaoirleach

Dairy farmers are under massive pressure for sure with the price of milk. When we think of dairy, it often is around the dairy farmer and the co-operative. There are one or two suppliers or producers that I want to draw a little bit of attention to in relation to people supplying and producing raw milk directly or the likes of buffalo farms producing milk for mozzarella cheese and so on. Would Mr. Cahill see those producers coming in under the umbrella of the agency?

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I will let Dr. Ó Céidigh answer that for the Chairman.

Dr. Muiris Ó Céidigh

I will come back to the initial question and then go on to what the Chair is saying. We are going to be meeting with the regulator. The Agri-Food Regulator has a very broad remit. The role had been born out of an EU directive that looks at retail practices and specifies specific ones which the regulator is on the watch for and is to intervene if they emerge in terms of how they treat suppliers. That is the core function of the regulator. We would be supportive of that. In terms of what the National Milk Agency does, we do not have a direct interaction with the retailer. We do in a small way, which I can go into later on. There is a set of practices.

The other thing that the regulator does is it provides transparency on price throughout the business chain. We look forward to that because everybody knows what the producer gets paid. Everybody knows what the retailer gets paid by the consumer. The black box in the middle is what the retailer pays the processor and that is a very interesting question in terms of both branded and own-label product. If you are asking about where the value is being delivered to - and we are interested in the value that is being delivered to producers out of their supplies of liquid milk - that is an important piece in the chain to be able to see what envelope there is of money throughout the chain.

As regards people outside the National Milk Agency's system, the National Milk Agency regulates all liquid milk and fresh milk production for the consumer. Mr. Cahill has mentioned the importance of the product to the consumer. At the establishment and under the statute, excluded from the regulations was all imports of milk. The question of what imports actually mean there is beginning to be discussed at the moment but that is neither here nor there. If, for example, a processor in Northern Ireland was acquiring milk in the South, we are now looking closely at it. Even if that goes up to be processed in the North, it may be under our remit by virtue of the fact that it is acquired at a farm in the South. It is Irish milk. That is an issue before us at the moment.

In terms of raw milk and unpasteurised milk and the people the Cathaoirleach mentioned, that is not in our remit. We would regard that as an unusual enough segment of the market but it is not within our segment.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. Ó Céidigh. I am conscious that we are tight on time. Seven members are offering and we are due to finish at 5.15 p.m. Members have three minutes each. I call Senator Daly.

Senator Paul Daly

I thank Mr. Cahill and Dr. Ó Céidigh for being here today. I will not have many questions. For the record - I suppose it is no secret - I sat beside Mr. Cahill on the agriculture committee from 2016 to 2020. I sat where members sit when he was sitting where the Cathaoirleach sits from 2020 to 2024. Today, I am with members and he is with the witnesses. I think we have done the full set of musical chairs in the committee. We were colleagues for that duration and both members of Fianna Fáil before that. It is no secret that Mr. Cahill and I are good personal friends. He is not going to get a hard time from me today. It would give me great pleasure to propose that this committee will endorse him as the chair. I know it is a formality and he has to come before this committee as chair designate. I propose that we endorse the appointment of the Minister that he becomes the chair of the dairy board. He is bringing a serious wealth of knowledge going back to his ICMSA days, his political days and all the other boards and bodies he was on before.

I have a couple of questions. It is politics' loss and the milk agency's gain that Mr. Cahill is being appointed to this position. I wish him the best of luck with it. For my own information, having soldiered with him in the committee, he was always the dairy man. I would not be that au fait with dairy things so he was my go-to person. I remember when he was Chair that one of the things that we had a big issue with last time was the fixed milk price contracts. Would the milk agency have any input in situations or scenarios like that? Do we have a budget for promoting milk? Do we have any input or a direct line to the global dairy trade auctions where milk prices are decided? What new ambitions would Mr. Cahill like to bring to the role as the new appointee?

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I thank the Senator. People got so badly burned by the fixed milk price contracts that I think they will be consigned to history. I do not think the Senator will ever see a fixed milk price contract on the table now or into the future. I raise the fluctuation we have seen in last 12 months in the milk price. It is on a downward spiral. During the previous 12 months, it was on an upward spiral. I do not see any fixed milk price contracts ever being on the agenda again. Suppliers got burned with them and I cannot see it happening.

As regards milk price, the agency has no role in milk price whatsoever. It has a role in passing contracts and ensuring there is adequate compensation there for the production of year-round milk. As regards setting a price or what global trends are out there, the milk agency has no role there whatsoever. It is not a promotional body for milk; it is to regulate the market and ensure there is supply of the product. The NDC is the body that does promotion of milk on an industry basis with different representatives there. The agency would have no role there. It would have talks with the NDC and the NDC would come to it for the facts and figures about consumption, etc., in the liquid business. As regards promotion, the answer is "No".

Deputy Martin Kenny

I welcome Mr. Cahill to the committee. I was here when he was Chair. We have seen eye to eye on the vast majority of issues. I welcome his proposed appointment as chair and his great knowledge of the whole industry. He has very much been a representative of the farmer and understands all the issues as we move forward through somewhat turbulent times. Prices in all sectors of agriculture fluctuate an awful lot, and the milk sector is no different. While Mr. Cahill says the agency has no role in pricing, does he believe it should or should have more teeth in that respect?

Mr. Jackie Cahill

To have an effective industry, you have to have good relations and co-operation between everyone along the chain. At the end of the day, the producer groups meet the processors and they agree a contract. The producers are at the coalface and are not going to agree to a contract that would put them at a loss. If processors were forcing a contract on suppliers that was blatantly unfair and blatantly inadequate, the agency would have a role. The contract can be deferred and sent back for further consideration. That has happened in the past in the agency.

Deputy Martin Kenny

It has a referee role, then.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

Yes. If there is no adequate compensation, the agency can bring in the likes of Teagasc to give facts and figures on exactly what is needed to cover the cost of all the milk production. If a contract is inadequate, the agency will be able to come up with the facts and figures to prove it is inadequate and send it back to the processors. The processors know that, too. There are producer representatives in the agency and also processor, consumer and retailer representatives. A contract has to be fair to all sides. The mechanism is working. In an exceptional case, a contract would be sent back to the processor. There is power not to ratify it if it is felt there is inadequate compensation.

Deputy Martin Kenny

My final question is one I am sure comes up for chairs of all boards. Conflicts of interest have posed problems for other boards. In this regard, we have to have absolute clarity from everybody given their position on a board. I am certain Mr. Cahill will be upfront and straight in respect of all of that and in any business dealings he has in his role as chair of the board. I welcome his nomination for the position.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

The last chairman was a former chief executive of a co-op, so some could say he was on the processor side. I will still be dairy farming at home. I am farming in partnership with my nephew. We are not liquid producers as it stands. We were in liquid up to a number of years ago, but we are not liquid producers any more. As a farmer, I will not have any contract before the agency.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Fair enough.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome Mr. Cahill and congratulate him. I can think of no one more eminently suitable, qualified and experienced to take the job. I want to be clear here. I always say at these meetings that the punters listening in need to understand what we are doing. We have no veto over this appointment. As Deputy Aird has said, it has come through the Public Appointments Service. Mr. Cahill has been successful in the process and endorsed by the Minister, who wrote to this committee on 4 March 2026 to inform it. Therefore, we have known for some time that Mr. Cahill has been chosen. The decision is a measure of a fair, independently minded Minister because Mr. Cahill comes with the necessary skill and experience. He has demonstrated these in the Houses of the Oireachtas and his work. I have seen him in practice as a councillor and as president of the ICMSA. He was a member of Bord Bia and the National Dairy Council, so he brings a wealth of experience. He also brings street cred through his knowledge and understanding of Irish farmers and the Irish dairy sector.

Earlier we had the chief veterinary officer before us and one of the issues I raised was that of vaccines and following the science. It is interesting, from my observations beyond those of today, that we know the largest cohort of animal owners or producers seeking to avail of the vaccine are those in the dairy sector. Of course, that is the reason because there is a risk factor and a value there. However, that is going to be very significant when we in turn follow the science on the adverse effects. We always have to be mindful of impacts at this committee. We have no definitive data on the impact of vaccines. That is for another day but I just wanted to flag it.

Well done to Mr. Cahill. He is the right person for the job and I wish him well. Again, I congratulate the Minister on acknowledging Mr. Cahill is best placed. However, it is not a political favour. I would not want that message to go out from here. The decision is one that has been made on foot of a proper, transparent process, as set out in the Minister's letter, through the Public Appointments Service. Mr. Cahill has been picked on the basis of merit, expertise and what he can bring to the job. I have no doubt he will bring his sense of practicality as a dairy farmer who is in a farm partnership and who understands the sector and speaks to the people in it.

I have a question because I need some clarity on a matter. Will the witnesses touch on their remit regarding Northern Ireland? I like the emphasis placed by Mr. Cahill and indeed Dr. Ó Céidigh on producer- and processor-led activity and the strong interconnectivity between the producer and processor. I wish the witnesses well. They might be able to answer the question on any remit they have regarding milk going north and south and its processing and production, because this is an area that not everyone understands.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I thank the Senator for his remarks. As it stands, the agency has no remit regarding milk processed in Northern Ireland that comes into the State.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a vote in the Dáil and we are going to be under pressure for time as a result. Do the remaining TDs have a couple of quick questions that they want to put?

Deputy Joe Cooney

I want to ask a question.

An Cathaoirleach

We will put a Senator in the Chair so Mr. Cahill will have the opportunity to answer the questions when the Deputies are attending the vote. The Deputies will be able to see the transcript.

Deputy William Aird

I congratulate Mr. Cahill. I suppose I am the only one around the table who delivered loose milk, in Portlaoise. Liquid milk contracts came to be when people were put out of business because of pasteurisation. Liquid contracts came in. There was a good difference in respect of the winter milk and the spring milk, as we used to say. The difference now is that things have got worse and worse. There is very little difference now, and that is why there are very few remaining liquid contracts. You get your couple of pence over and above, but as the witnesses know, with the input costs now, fewer people are producing liquid milk. The superlevy was taken away at the time in question, as Mr. Cahill knows. Given that there are people just milking on, because of the milk price reduction overall and what we can see regarding Glanbia-----

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Deputy Aird to be quick because I need to allow the two other speakers in with their questions.

Deputy William Aird

-----because of 7 cent, so you are not going to get people milking cows in the winter. Mr. Cahill even said himself that he gave up producing liquid milk because there was too much work with it and too little profit. The point I am making is that we have a very serious situation affecting the last few liquid milk suppliers. They need to be looked after. What is happening is that they are being suppressed.

I do not have a problem with Strathroy buying milk from my area and bringing it back to the North to process, after which it comes back into the State. There is a competitive market but the bottom line is that the producer here has to be considered.

I see that you can now have a vending machine for milk. We have nearly gone full circle. There is an awful lot of talk about Bord Bia audits and so on, but liquid milk producers were audited all their lives. There was more whitewashing done before the inspector came at that time. I am just making the point that we are in a very serious situation. As has been said, people like fresh milk-----

An Cathaoirleach

I want to give Deputy Cooney an opportunity to ask a question.

Deputy William Aird

-----and if you want fresh milk, you can only get it from the liquid producer.

Deputy Joe Cooney

I thank the Chair. I thank the guests for attending and for the opening statement. As a Clareman, I wish Mr. Cahill well in his new role. That said, I believe we will be wishing his county well at the weekend after the ball is thrown in for the Munster championship.

I note from the briefing material supplied to us that the key aim of the Milk (Regulation of Supply) Act 1994 is to maintain adequate compensation for producers, which is very important.

The country was a totally different world in 1994, especially when it comes to the sale of milk to the public. One of the main issues I hear from dairy farmers is that the supermarkets dictate the price of milk. They cut the price of milk on the shelves and less money is paid to farmers, which is not good enough. This does not take into account the increase in the input costs to produce a litre of milk. The connection between the cost of supply and the sale price is utterly broken. This is not good enough. In the face of that changed situation, will the agency outline how it plans to ensure adequate compensation is paid to dairy farmers for milk?

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy. There are a bunch of questions there. I ask Senator Daly to take the Chair while Deputies are voting. We will read the transcript afterwards. Senator Lynch is also due to speak. The meeting might be wrapped up by the time we come back. I join members in wishing Mr. Cahill well.

Senator Paul Daly took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Paul Daly)

The Chair cut Mr. Cahill short before he got to finish answering Senator Boyhan's questions about the North.

Senator Victor Boyhan

It was about the agency's jurisdiction in the North versus the South. Mr. Cahill was explaining that it does not have any remit in the North. I ask him to flesh that out.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Paul Daly)

I ask Mr. Cahill to finish answering Senator Boyhan's question and then answer the questions asked by Deputies Aird and Cooney. I will then bring in Senator Lynch.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

The agency has no remit on milk coming in here that is processed in Northern Ireland. As Dr. Ó Céidigh hinted earlier in his comments, this is under review. As Deputy Aird said, Strathroy is purchasing more and more milk in the South and taking it to the North for processing. That is putting a spotlight on that milk. The agency will be looking at this going forward. It is my personal opinion that if we are to have a properly regulated market, any milk being sold here should be under the remit of the agency. That is under review. Milk processed in the North that comes in here is not currently under the remit of the agency.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Mr. Cahill for the clarity on that.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

Deputies Aird and Cooney raised a lot of issues. Deputy Aird got to the nub of the issue, namely, the financial viability of producing liquid milk and the increased pressure that has been put on price. There are a lot of issues. Dr. Ó Ceidigh might give a run-down on the decline in the number of liquid milk producers over the past number of years. The production of milk all-year around comes at a cost. Aside from the financial aspect, there is the social side. Farmers have cows to milk on Christmas Day and during the holiday period, which is a couple of weeks when the rest of the country is in a holiday mode. Farmers who are in liquid milk production are in full working mode for that period. On a lot of units, especially family farms, decisions were taken based on whether it was financially worth it given the pressure that was being put on the farm as a unit and also the social aspect. When everyone else is in a festive mood, the cows still have to be milked in the morning and evening. That has definitely been a consideration on a lot of farms. Over a long period, the compensation or premium being given to liquid milk producers has been eroded. It has dropped significantly over a period of time.

It is the agency's job to approve contracts. The hard negotiation will always go on between the producer groups and the processors. The agency has the power not to ratify contracts. At the end of the day, if the producer groups come to an agreement with the processors, that agreement will generally be accepted by the agency. We have a role in pointing out to the retailers the difficulties that producers are under. There has been an issue with processors fighting for market share as well. Again, there was margin given away to the retailers over a long number of years. When processors give away a margin, it can be extremely difficult to get it back. The price at which liquid milk farmers are producing is going to make it very difficult for that milk to be produced. That has to be recognised.

Fertiliser prices are increasing rapidly. Concentrate prices are increasing. Energy costs are going through the roof. Labour costs are increasing. All costs are increasing fairly rapidly, while the price of milk is dropping. The price of milk over the counter has dropped 10 cent a litre in the past six to eight months. It is hard to understand how the milk price can go in one way when all the costs are going the other way. It is a theorem that is definitely not sustainable. When contracts for the current year are being negotiated, processors and retailers will have to recognise those harsh facts. I would love to say the agency will have the power to increase the price paid to liquid producers by X amount per litre. That is not the remit of the agency, and it is probably for the better that it is not. The remit is to ensure there is adequate compensation. It has been doing that since its foundation in 1995.

Deputy Aird is a liquid milk producer. He fully understands the price pressures. The number of liquid producers is falling. I will let Dr. Ó Céidigh give facts and figures on that but it is a problem. We have always managed to have adequate milk supplies in the Republic, but just because we have always had supply does not mean it can be taken for granted.

Dr. Muiris Ó Céidigh

To address what has happened in recent times, in 2020, for example, there were 1,300 liquid milk producers in the country. That has fallen to around 1,000 or slightly more. As for the profile that producers face, they are looking at a reducing retail price. There are two parts to their price - the manufacturing price and the premium. The manufacturing price linked to world price is back by 12 cent. The premium for next year will come before the agency in May or June of this year. The premium was of the order of 13 cent. The price has become unsustainable by virtue of the reduction in the manufacturing price. There are a lot of things coming at liquid milk producers and the agency. Costs of fertilisers are up by 40%. Whatever happens at the National Milk Agency as regards prices for producers ultimately transfers into the degree to which they stay in the game.

Another problem regarding producers staying in the game is successors. Successors to the current liquid milk producers have to swallow all the unsocial hours of being a liquid milk producer and the fact that it is all-year around. They have to weigh up whether they would be better off as manufacturing-only producers which means they can dry off for a large part of the year. In light of that question of how producers will get successors, combined with the appalling vista of retail and producer prices dropping and costs going up, we have a big job of work in front of us.

Having said that, this legislation was unique because it set up a kind of system under which all members of the business chain were made aware, by their appointment to the agency, of the importance of maintaining the position of the liquid milk producer. That is why they are there - to ensure the adequacy of compensation. The processors are there for that, the consumers are there for that, the producers are there for that, obviously, and the roundsmen are there as well. When people join as members of the agency, they are there to examine the situation. It is not about fixing a price. It is about the other side of the economics, which is supply. If a certain type of price is going to be paid, and if people are going to be in a certain type of circumstance concerning it, the question is whether it will gain the supply so that at the end of the day, the Irish consumer, like the British consumer but unlike the rest of Europe, will be able to have fresh milk delivered to their door for their cornflakes or tea. It is like sliced bread. Milk is the next thing on the counter beside sliced bread.

Uniquely, the economic sustainability of the liquid milk producers got statutory recognition in 1994. We will do our best in terms of that under Mr. Cahill, who is going to be our new man, and we welcome his arrival. There is a job of work to be done. A lot is running against liquid milk producers at the moment.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan resumed the Chair.

Senator Eileen Lynch

I congratulate Mr. Cahill on his new role and wish him every success for his term. Dr. Ó Céidigh touched on some of the issues I wanted to discuss, namely, generational renewal and the ageing demographic when it comes to the liquid milk sector. The difficulties facing the sector have already been outlined in terms of why more people are not getting into it. How do we deal with that and make it more attractive?

Sustainability is the keyword when we think of the National Milk Agency. How do we look at over-regulation, at times, in the production of liquid milk? It is crucifying farmers involved in the dairy industry. Are there any mechanisms or ways in which we can address this?

Linked in with that, another issue is smaller herd sizes. How do we work to improve this aspect? To go back to all the restrictions, regulations and red tape, which are obviously a massive deterrent, the cost of milk is now decreasing. Is it time that the consumer pays more so the farmer can get a fair price? Obviously, it is not palatable, but the price is going to deter people in future. In particular, it is going to deter young people. If it comes to that point, they are just not going to get into the sector. We need to look at our ageing farmers and generational renewal when it comes to liquid milk production to ensure that sustainability.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I thank the Senator. I have a strong view on generational renewal. It is very simple. If there are adequate financial returns, generational renewal will not be an issue. The problem at the moment is that the returns in every sector are inadequate and people are choosing other careers. We can have all the fancy planning about generational renewal, grants and this, that and the other, but at the end of the day it is about the price. The price paid for the product will decide it. The income that will be made on the farm will decide for an awful lot of young men and women whether they want to enter farming. Until we grasp that nettle, generational renewal is going to continue to be a problem. The exact same thing applies to the liquid milk sector. If the returns are there, young people will stay producing liquid milk. If the returns are not there, they will walk away from it. As I said, there are social issues involved as well. People are working, for example, in holiday periods when everybody else is off.

Deputy William Aird

On Christmas Day.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

Yes, I did it for years. People will make those decisions. To me, that is the situation with generational renewal.

The Senator hit on another thing when she mentioned regulation in the dairy sector, with derogation, nitrates, etc. There are so many rules now around derogation and nitrates. In my experience, the Department itself does not fully understand all the rules and regulations in place. When you are farming, and it is now 2026, you really do not know how much manure you can spread through the calendar year. I will take the example of phosphorus and potassium, P and K, and the amount of nitrogen that can be spread. It depends on the stocking rate in the year. Something is going to have to change so that on 1 January of a given year farmers will know exactly what they can do for that year. Men are being told when August comes that they cannot spread any more nitrogen because they are after exceeding their P and K limit. That can be influenced by the amount of concentrates fed to animals. We are after having one of the most difficult springs in living memory. An awful lot more meal concentrate has been fed to cows this winter than has been done in previous winters. This is going to have an impact on the amount of P that can be spread in this calendar year.

To expect farmers to be able to do those sums and to stay on the right side of the fence the whole time is becoming so bureaucratic that they almost need a consultant on site nearly all the time to make sure they are not in breach of those regulations. As long as I have been sitting around tables like this one, we have been told things were going to be simplified, but it has always gone the other way. The situation with nitrates and the derogation has got so complicated now that I would say no one understands the regulations or is able to interpret them correctly and efficiently. That is something that needs to change. The amount of regulation around the derogation is driving farmers around the twist. The vast majority of liquid milk farmers, though not all, would be heavily stocked - it comes with the trade - and the majority of them would be in derogation, so they are affected by these regulations. This is something that needs to change and become more simplified. More certainty needs to be brought to it.

The derogation is bringing us rules. We all have to accept that, but we cannot be telling a fella in August that he is at his limit and he cannot do this or that. Fodder levels this year are going to be exceptionally low when this winter is over. To get those levels built up again for next winter will mean people will be inclined to spread, even with the price of fertiliser. It is going to cause people difficulty. As was said to me today, fertiliser is still the cheapest feed. If you do not spend on fertiliser, then you will not have the silage pits full.

The regulation that has come into place around derogation and nitrates has really complicated the dairy industry. Reference was made to the Bord Bia audits and the different audits dairy farmers have to go through. While all those are tiresome and they have to be done, the regulation around derogation now is really putting farmers through the mill.

Deputy William Aird

Do I have time for a question?

An Cathaoirleach

Very quickly.

Deputy William Aird

Mr. Cahill will understand this point. When we are talking about young people, we are all trying to encourage young people everywhere into farming. I came across a young fella the other day. His father was the boss the whole time. He has now gone into a partnership with the father. It is not unusual; it happens. He is getting no grant, good, bad or indifferent, because his father did not have enough slurry storage. There was no grant for a tank. In the name of God, how do any people stand up and say they are interested in getting young people into farming in that kind of situation?

I know what it was like. My father would do anything bar spend money on concrete. He had no problem if you wanted to buy cattle or land, but he would not spend money on concrete. That was that generation. There are people like that. If a young lad is coming on, bursting at the seams to try to get going in farming and to try to improve the situation, and we then tell him, as a young person, “No”, we are not giving him any grant because his father does not have enough storage, that is shocking.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy William Aird

I am just going back to what was said about regulations and being over-regulated. That is something-----

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Cahill want to add anything to that?

Deputy William Aird

-----the ridiculousness of it.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

In situations where people go into partnership, the young farmer will lose the 60% grant.

Deputy William Aird

Yes.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

The ridiculousness of it. The older generation should be encouraged to go into partnership with younger farmers, but two participants in a partnership cannot draw down grant aid or TAMS.

We live in a society in which the older generation are reluctant to give away full control of a property in case of a marriage break-up, relationship break up and so on. There is a reluctance to let go of the reins completely, but there is no recognition of the modern methods to get around that, namely partnerships between the older generation and the younger generation. Generation renewal is about the financial return, but all these things have to be right for the younger generation as well. We put obstacles in their way. For example, a grant of a few thousand for people to sign over succession is meaningless. It is about the return from the enterprise someone is involved in. To lose access because someone is putting a working partnership in place is ridiculous.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Cahill. I need to bring matters to a close. I join with members in recognising Mr. Cahill's wealth of experience and knowledge. We wish him every success with the new role. Go n-éirí leat.

Mr. Jackie Cahill

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee, I thank the chair designate and the CEO for attending and wish them every success.

Sitting suspended at 5.21 p.m. and resumed at 5.24 p.m.

• Ar ais chuig clár ábhair
• Irish National Stud: Engagement with Chairperson Designate