Joint Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2026

• Díospóireachtaí
• Aimsigh díospóireacht
  • Díospóireachtaí na Dála
  • Díospóireachtaí an tSeanaid
  • Díospóireachtaí Coiste
• Aimsigh vótáil
  • Vótálacha na Dála
  • Vótálacha an tSeanaid
  • Vótálacha Coiste
• Ceisteanna Parlaiminte
  • Ceisteanna scríofa
  • Ceisteanna ó bhéal
• Leideanna cuardaigh
• Nuair a bhíonn tionchar tromchúiseach ag aithrisí

Use of Scrambler Bikes and Public Safety: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

No apologies have been conveyed to me as yet. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode. This is a very important meeting of the committee. Its purpose is to have an engagement on the use of scrambler bikes, public safety and related matters. This is an issue that has been raised as a priority by several members of the committee. Many members have reported that the use of scrambler bikes, electronic scramblers, and high-powered e-bikes and e-scooters has emerged as a serious public safety issue in many communities. That has been highlighted in the aftermath of the killing of Grace Lynch.

The committee is particularly pleased and humbled to welcome Grace's parents, Martin and Siobhan. They are very welcome. We also delighted to be joined by Mr. Michael Noonan, public relations officer of the Irish Motorcycle Association. We are grateful to have An Garda Síochána well represented here by Garda Commissioner Justin Kelly, Deputy Commissioner Shawna Coxon and Assistant Commissioner Catharina Gunne. Representing the Irish Road Victims Association, we have Ms Donna Price and Mr. Leo Lieghio. Both are parents who have tragically lost children. From the Road Safety Authority, we are pleased to welcome Mr. Michael Rowland and Ms Velma Burns.

The format of the meeting is such that we will invite each group or individual to make an opening statement of two to three minutes. We will then call on members of the committee in the order in which they have indicated to put questions. I am aware that we are joined by a number of Deputies who are not members of the committee but have a particular interest in this issue. We will allow members of the committee to speak first.

We will work out exact timings for that and if time allows, we will allow non-members to make short interventions. I remind members that the duration of the meeting is limited.

I have to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that may be made to other persons in any evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative any such direction is complied with.

I now invite each organisation or group to deliver their opening statement. We will begin with Mr. Michael Noonan from the Irish Motorcycle Association. He is very welcome. I thank him for being here.

Mr. Michael Noonan

I am the public relations officer for the Irish Motorcycle Association. We represent the interests of the biking community within Ireland. We are also a member of the Federation of European Motorcyclists Associations, FEMA, and the Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme, FIM, which is the regulatory body for all motor-sports in every shape, manner and form. Wearing another hat under the same hat, I am also one of the founding members of the International Fire and EMS Motorcycle Response Unit Association, IMRUA, which consists of all the statutory state agencies throughout the world that use bikes as a means of response, be they ambulance, fire or police services, as well as various bits and pieces in that regard. I am also a motorbike medic. I have been involved in the biking world for 50 or 60 years. Currently, I travel approximately 100,000 miles per year on bikes. I am well used to them in that regard, due to both personal nature and some of the stuff I am involved in.

The IMA tends to look at the legislative side of things. We deal with Brussels and forthcoming legislation that comes through. We tend to have an input into that aspect of things. Over the years, we have been quite vocal about the particular matter before the committee today. We see a number of solutions that are reasonably easy to put into place that would make this particular matter a little bit easier to deal with. It boils down to legislative changes and looking at the actual use of what is going on in general. While the word "scrambler" has been used, effectively speaking, the units that are causing problems on the streets are high-speed electric bikes and scrambling bikes, which are off-road bikes. They are the equivalent of a tractor in the boating world. They are high-powered with a lot of ping. They are designed for off-road usage, which makes their apprehension quite difficult because we must have like for like to keep up with one of these things.

There are aspects that legislators could look at in the context of bringing in legislation. We tried to get this done through a White Paper about ten years ago, but it did not go through the Houses. This is the type of stuff we predicted a long time ago. Maybe it is time to take the blinkers off, step outside the forest and take a different look at things. We might find a solution for what is there. Hopefully, we can put something forward that might be of help or use to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

Next we have Martin and Siobhan Lynch. I understand Mr. Lynch will make the opening statement. They are very welcome.

Mr. Martin Lynch

We thank the committee for the opportunity to appear at this sitting. We, as parents, have lost our daughter, Grace, as a result of the reckless and illegal use of a scrambler on a public road. The use of petrol and electric scramblers, e-scooters and e-bikes has been a scourge on this country for years. The problem is getting worse due to the lack of regulations implemented by the Government.

On 9 June 2018, Ilabek Avetian was seriously injured after he was hit by a scrambler in Coolock. He suffered catastrophic life-changing injuries, but not enough was done to make sure this did not happen again. This culminated in our beautiful daughter, Grace, a 16-year-old girl, being struck down and killed while she was simply crossing the road at our estate, with the lights in her favour. Recently, near the Five Lamps in Dublin, a young boy, Jayden Deans, was seriously injured after he was hit by a scrambler while going to his local shop. These incidents should not have happened. The Government needs to act and protect the people it represents by ridding these vehicles from our streets.

I have outlined in my submission to this committee that the sale, advertising and control of these vehicles needs to be made a priority. Otherwise, more will die a needless death or suffer life-altering injuries. Janis Ozols, a 17-year-old male, was fatally injured from a fall from an e-scooter on Monday, 29 June in Carlow. As of yesterday, another man in Carlow was severely injured from an e-scooter incident. This has to stop.

Gardaí need to be trained and supplied with up-to-date equipment and vehicles to combat the widespread use of illegal vehicles on the roads, parks and pathways. They need better protection from prosecution while doing their job. The professional driving licence must be implemented immediately and a dedicated off-road Garda unit needs to be introduced. Far too many Garda members are being prosecuted for dangerous driving while trying to stop these people who are dangerously and recklessly driving. The onus of responsibility should be on the person who fails to stop or flees and not the other way around.

We highlight the ever-increasing numbers going through the hospitals as a result of the misuse of these vehicles. The numbers are damning and show the need to address this epidemic of reckless behaviour. I have attached a supporting letter on this from Dr. Luke Phillips, a consultant in the emergency department at the Mater hospital. As of 3 July, half of the ICU beds in Temple Street children’s hospital were taken up by electric scooter injuries. At present, there are 400 presentations per year at Temple Street hospital as result of these vehicles, despite the legal age of use being 16 and in theory these hospitals should see none. Fr. Seamus Aherne, who performed Grace's funeral, said the youngsters who use these vehicles recklessly, "will kill or be killed".

We applaud Grace's local GAA club, Erin's Isle GAA, for taking the lead and introducing a ban on e-scooter and e-bike usage on its grounds. This was followed by Graiguecullen GAA club. We hope this will be the case for all GAA clubs around the country because enough is enough.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Lynch. I understand that Ms Lynch will say a few words. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

In 2022, in the UK, the sentence for death by dangerous driving was increased from 14 years to life imprisonment. In Ireland, an increase from ten years to 14 years is being sought. We would like to see that change over here. There should be a heftier sentence.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Siobhan and Martin. We move now to An Garda Síochána. I understand Garda Commissioner Kelly will provide the opening statement. I thank the Commissioner for being here.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to discuss the use of scrambler bikes and public safety. The unlawful and dangerous use of scrambler bikes, off-road motorcycles and similar vehicles is a significant public safety, community safety and road safety issue. These vehicles can be used in a way that places pedestrians, other road users, local communities, Garda personnel and the riders themselves at serious risk.

I am conscious of the impact this issue has had and continues to have for many families and communities. It has been shaped by serious incidents, real harm and understandable public concern. Our objective in An Garda Síochána is to prevent harm, support safer communities and take enforcement action where offences are detected. The Road Traffic (Control of Certain Vehicles) Regulations 2026 is an important development. The regulations provide a clearer framework regarding the use of off-road motorcycles, including scramblers. An Garda Síochána has taken steps to support their implementation, including the issuing of internal awareness material and guidance to Garda personnel and the availability of an offence code on our PULSE system.

An Garda Síochána has a number of existing statutory and common law powers available where the unlawful or dangerous use of these vehicles is detected. These include powers under section 41 of the Road Traffic Act 1994, section 109A of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and common law powers of seizure where seizure is necessary for legitimate evidential purposes. Operationally, An Garda Síochána undertakes targeted activity to address the unlawful, dangerous and antisocial use of these vehicles. This includes high-visibility patrols, checkpoints, intelligence-led operations, searches where appropriate, seizure activity, multi-agency activity and targeted days of action.

Operation Meacán is one example of this work. Operating in the Dublin metropolitan region, it is a co-ordinated, intelligence-led initiative focused on the unlawful use of scramblers, electric motorbikes, e-scooters, mopeds and quads, with an emphasis on public safety, seizure activity, offender identification and community reassurance. However, enforcement alone will not fully address this issue.

The most effective response must combine prevention, education, community engagement and enforcement. Community policing teams have an important role in early intervention, local engagement, youth diversion and raising awareness among young people, parents, guardians and communities of both the legal requirements and the public safety risks involved. A number of areas will require continued focus if this response is to be effective, consistent and safe.

As Commissioner, I believe that our response must be to protect communities while also ensuring that enforcement activity is carried out safely. That means taking into account the safety of other road users, Garda personnel and the general public. I am particularly conscious of these vehicles' use in residential areas, in public spaces, on roads and in locations where pedestrians or vulnerable road users may be present. The practical administration of seizure, removal, storage and disposal processes also remains important where vehicles are lawfully seized under existing statutory powers. Work must also continue in the area of prevention, public awareness, education and offender identification.

An Garda Síochána continues to engage with the relevant Government Departments and stakeholders on the practical operation of the regulations, including any legislative, procedural or policy supports that may assist in ensuring effective, consistent and proportionate enforcement. We remain committed to working with the Government, the Oireachtas, local authorities, communities and other relevant stakeholders to look at further ways we can address this issue and support these measures. I look forward to engaging with the committee and answering members' questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand Ms Price from the Irish Road Victims Association will give the opening statement.

Ms Donna Price

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for inviting the Irish Road Victims Association to address them. We welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important discussion on the use of scrambler bikes and public safety.

The Irish Road Victims Association is the national charity for road crash victims. We support and advocate for people whose lives have been changed forever by road traffic collisions. Through our work, we meet families who have lost loved ones, people living with life-changing injuries, and victims whose lives have been turned upside down in an instant. Their sudden, violent and traumatic experiences shape everything we do. I want to be clear that this is not about scrambler bikes themselves. They have legitimate recreational and sporting uses when operated lawfully. Our concern is the illegal use of these vehicles in public places and the very real risks they pose to innocent members of the public.

There are three key messages we would like to leave with the committee. First, victims must remain at the centre of this debate. Every serious collision is far more than an accident or a statistic. It represents a person whose life has been permanently altered, or a bereaved family who must cope with the devastating loss of a loved one. The devastating consequences of these crashes are lifelong, and they should be at the heart of any governmental or legislative process. Second, victims deserve accountability and access to justice. Where scrambler bikes are unregistered or uninsured or where riders cannot be identified, victims can face additional barriers in seeking accountability, access to justice, and compensation for their loss or very serious injury. Innocent people should not be left at a disadvantage because of gaps in the current system. Any changes to legislation should ensure that those responsible for these deaths and injury can be identified and held accountable, while the unfortunate victims have clear and effective routes to some semblance of justice, and compensation for their loss. Third, prevention must be our shared objective. We believe that stronger legislation and effective, rigorous enforcement are vital, and that they should form part of a broader approach that also includes education, youth engagement and safe, lawful opportunities for those who wish to participate in off-road motorcycling responsibly. Preventing collisions and reducing the number of victims must always be our ultimate goal.

Finally, we believe that any future Government policy or legislative changes should continue to place victims and their bereaved families at the centre of decision-making. Their experiences provide an important reminder of why these issues matter and why action is needed. Our message is a simple one. Whatever measures emerge from this committee's work, they should improve public safety, strengthen accountability and, above all, better protect innocent victims and their families. No parent should have to experience what our families have been through, our lives utterly destroyed forever, in an instant. Our loved ones are never coming back to us, but we can work together to bring about much-needed change in their honour. I thank members and I look forward to their questions.

An Cathaoirleach

From the Road Safety Authority, our final speaker is Mr. Michael Rowland.

Mr. Michael Rowland

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to members on this important issue of scrambler bikes and public safety. I also acknowledge Siobhán and Martin Lynch, the parents of Grace Lynch. I express our deepest sympathies for the loss of your daughter. No parent should have to experience this pain, this tragedy. I recognise and thank you for all you have done in establishing Grace's Law to ensure that no one else has to experience this devastating loss. Off-road scramblers are not type approved and are not designed for use on public roads. These scramblers typically have, for example, no mirrors, front or rear lights, indicators or horn and use tyres designed for off-road surfaces. They should never be used on public roads.

To inform our discussions today, the RSA has analysed collision data from January 2021 to June 2026, focusing on fatal and serious injury collisions involving scramblers on public roads. During this time, four road users died and 59 road users were seriously injured in a collision where at least one scrambler was involved. Two of the road users who died and 15 of the road users who were seriously injured were not scrambler users. These 17 road users included pedestrians, cyclists, drivers and passengers. Just over half of these casualties, 53%, were male. Almost three in five were aged 25 years or less. Of the 46 scrambler users who died or were seriously injured during this time, all were male. Three quarters were aged 25 years or less. Of the fatal and serious injury collisions involving a scrambler, three quarters occurred in Dublin, 6% in Limerick and 6% in Cork.

I will now talk to some of the awareness and education initiatives that the RSA is progressing in relation to scramblers and road safety. The RSA airs an annual campaign to remind parents and guardians that scramblers are not toys for children and highlight some of the consequences following a fall or a collision. The campaign typically runs in the lead-up to Christmas and includes radio, social media and out-of-home advertisements. We have also aired a radio advert voiced by Mr. Keith Synnott, who is an orthopaedic consultant, which raises awareness of the serious injuries that can be caused when quad bikes and scramblers are given to children as toys. We are currently developing a new social media campaign to raise awareness of Grace's Law. As our analysis of collision data shows that younger males are more likely to be involved in collisions when using scramblers, the RSA will include information on Grace's Law in its educational programmes, which are delivered to young people across a range of settings.

Lastly, we acknowledge the critical role that Garda enforcement will play in implementing Grace's Law. The law must be supported by rigorous and targeted enforcement, particularly in areas of high usage. It is essential that vehicles are confiscated as part of this process to deter further illegal and dangerous scrambler use on public roads. We are deeply concerned about the number of people who have died or been seriously injured in collisions involving scramblers in recent times. Under our remit to provide road safety education, awareness and research, the RSA fully supports Grace's Law and will continue to inform the public on the dangers and consequences of illegally using scramblers on public roads. That concludes my opening statement to the committee. My colleague Velma Burns and I are happy to take any questions members may have.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Rowland, and thank you to all our opening speakers. The format, as I said, is that I will invite members in the order in which they have indicated to engage with the witnesses.

Considering the numbers here, I suggest we have five-minute interactions for members followed by three-minute interactions for any non-members. Then we can allow a follow-up round for members' final questions if time allows. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Mark Ward

I welcome all the witnesses here today, and particularly Grace Lynch's mother and father, Siobhán and Martin. I have met with you and I thank you for meeting me. I expressed my condolences privately to both of you but I also want to publicly express my condolences on the loss of your beautiful daughter. You should not be here today. You should be at home enjoying the beautiful sunshine with your beautiful daughter. I want to thank you for your tireless campaign in trying to make our communities safer so that no other family should have to go through what you went through. Thank you for your dedication.

I also welcome Mr. Leo Lieghio. I know Leo probably ten years at this stage as he has campaigned on the loss of his beautiful daughter Marsia who passed away 20 years ago after a hit and run. I want to thank Leo as well for his dedication and his campaign over a number of years.

Grace's Law now prohibits the use of scramblers in public spaces but I can walk through any park in my area in Clondalkin and Lucan and see scramblers being misused, flying up and down. They do not care about the safety impacts they are putting on the public. They are a plague on our roads, a plague on our footpaths and a plague on our communities. They are often used to distribute drugs and money for other illegal things. I have been on this committee for the whole of this year. Looking around today and given the number of members here, I have never seen so much interest on one topic. It shows the impact it is having on our communities right across the State, and not just in Dublin.

I have a couple of questions, the first of which is to An Garda Síochána. Last week we heard comments from the Garda Representative Association, GRA, that members are not trained in pursuit training. How can we expect Grace's Law to be effective if gardaí cannot pursue scramblers or high-powered e-scooters? Will the Commissioner walk me through the Garda policy for pursuing scramblers? What is the threshold for beginning to pursue? What is the threshold to calling off a pursuit? What protections are currently in place for the gardaí who pursue these vehicles?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I thank the Deputy for the question. First of all, our policy allows pursuit of motorcycles, scramblers and cars. How it actually works is if gardaí come upon that situation they look for permission from our communications centre to continue a pursuit. They have to give a lot of detail to the communications centre who will then authorise it to continue if it is a spontaneous incident. Our analysis of those calls is that about 75% are allowed to continue and 25% of them are not. A risk assessment is carried out by people in our communications centre who are trained in how to deal with this. They will make that risk assessment and then they will decide whether it should go ahead. There is a whole range of factors about which they will ask the gardaí who are actually on the ground in the cars, including details around the time of day, the number of people in the area, the speed the person is doing, the manner of driving and a whole-----

Deputy Mark Ward

How long does that take? The way the Commissioner is talking they would be gone before the gardaí get an answer.

Mr. Justin Kelly

No. It is very quick. The way I describe it certainly sounds lengthy but it is very quick. The people we have in the control centres have all been trained specifically on how to do this. That is how it actually works. The Deputy referred to training and the GRA right at the start of his question. The Deputy is absolutely correct. There is very limited pursuit training. The only training that we have in the area historically has been for some very specialist units that have training in this. The vast majority of gardaí who are driving do not have pursuit training. We have different levels of training. Gardaí are trained how to drive safely and how to use blue lights and sirens, but pursuit training is not something we have traditionally done. This has been raised with me since I got the job as the Garda Commissioner last September. I have committed that we are going to do that. I spoke at the GRA conference a few months ago and I was asked this. I have committed that we are going to do this. We have started work already around looking at how we are going to do it, and looking at how other police forces do it.

Deputy Mark Ward

Is there different pursuit training for pursuing a car or a scrambler?

Mr. Justin Kelly

Yes, absolutely. It will all form part of that training. I have to say that we have to be realistic about this. I have said this publicly. At the moment we have the EU Presidency until the end of the year. The reality of us starting organisation-wide with very substantive training for all our drivers is not realistic until the new year. We are not sitting there doing nothing. We are working through how this will look. We are working with our training people in Templemore and our driving school instructor people to see how we can best deliver this. I am committed to doing this. I have spoken-----

Deputy Mark Ward

My time is up, but I have a final question. What about the protections in place for the gardaí if they pursue? We have heard stories left, right and centre about gardaí losing their own driver licences and not being able to drive after that. What protections are in place for gardaí?

An Cathaoirleach

A brief response if you can, Commissioner.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I am really concerned about gardaí who are on the front line and are in these positions. I will give a sense of how that looks at the moment. The latest figures I have are for June. We have ten gardaí who are before the courts for dangerous driving or careless driving during the course of their duty, when they were working and something happened. To give a sense of that, some of these are incidents that happened but there was no injury. Nobody has been injured and we have gardaí charged with driving offences. How it works - maybe everybody does not know this - is that if a garda is involved in a collision and it is a pursuit, this is reported to the Office of the Police Ombudsman, Fiosrú, which investigates it. The Garda does not investigate it - Fiosrú investigates it and then it will make a recommendation to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. The DPP will decide whether charges are brought and, if they are brought, the gardaí go to court. We then have to make an individual decision on each case, but generally we do not suspend the garda. Often when a garda is involved in serious things like domestic violence, sexual crime or corruption, we suspend the garda. In the majority of the pursuit cases, we take the decision not to suspend them because as these cases wind their way through the courts - I think everybody knows how long that takes - they will be dismissed or the garda will be acquitted at the end. The consequence for gardaí when they spend a couple of years really concerned and worried about a case is that it impacts them and impacts their colleagues, it impacts their families and it certainly has a chilling effect on the rest of the organisation. Sometimes they go through this and then the cases are dismissed. The other thing they have to look at is that it is on their own private driver licence. If they are convicted, there are consequences for them around their insurance, their driving licence, and then discipline because if they are convicted there will be a discipline element to it. To answer the Deputy's question, it is a really difficult situation.

An Cathaoirleach

There will be an opportunity to follow up but I just want to allow other members in.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will pick up on that point in a second because I think it is one of the most pertinent issues we need to deal with. First, I offer my condolences to Siobhán and Martin. As the father of a 16-year-old girl, my heart breaks for you. Well done on all your advocacy. I will have a brief question for you at the end of my questions.

We are legislators. From a legislative point of view, this issue is for all of us. I am from a rural area but we have towns where there are issues with scramblers for the same reasons as everywhere else. It is not just an urban or Dublin concern; it is everywhere. The definitions of scramblers versus e-bikes have become a little bit mixed up because some of them have such capacity now and can be modified. I have seen them being modified in front of me. That becomes an issue as well. I have spoken to many gardaí and they find pursuit issues so difficult. I appreciate that the training will not happen until the new year but from a legislative point of view would the Commissioner welcome legislative change here? I have looked at what they are doing in the UK, and in fairness I have also spoken to the Minister in relation to this. Under the UK's Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 there are different definitions of driving for members of the police force, and other categories, when it comes to pursuit. Would the Commissioner welcome legislative change? Obviously, there are exemptions whereby if members of the police force over there or other assigned organisations behave in a certain way they are still prosecuted to the same degree as everyone else. Would the Commissioner welcome the legislative change that would help in the area of gardaí in pursuit?

Mr. Justin Kelly

The short answer is "absolutely". I have discussed this with the Minister for Justice, Migration and Home Affairs and the Minister for Transport, and both of them are very supportive of it in principle. We have done two things. We have looked at many police forces around the world. The Deputy is right, in that the UK is different to Ireland. We have looked at some of our near neighbours, the EU, Canada and Australia and what they do. Our legal department is working through a proposal that we will send to the Minister around this. I have spoken-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Does Mr. Kelly have a timeframe for that?

Mr. Justin Kelly

In the next few weeks. I have spoken to the Secretary General of the Department, Doncha O'Sullivan, and the Minister about this and they are both supportive. I am not sure about how it will finally look. To touch on something about which the Deputy is right, our view is that if a garda's driving is so beyond the pale and outrageous, it should of course be dealt with the same as anybody else. We are certainly not looking for an absolute indemnity for gardaí.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Common sense.

Mr. Justin Kelly

Yes. We are looking for their driving to be measured against the standard to which they are trained, not against what is known as the normal and competent driver standard.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The committee should make a recommendation. I know it will be brought in by the Department of Transport. The Cathaoirleach of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport is here as well, which is helpful. In the British model, it applies to those who are in service and have a certain of training. In tandem with any change in legislation, we would also need to bring up the training. There are three different levels of training at the moment. How long would it take to get the force up to that level so that we could have the legislation in parallel with it?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I have not got the proposal-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will not stick Mr. Kelly to it.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I have not got a proposal back but it will not be a matter of weeks or months to-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

The guts of a year.

Mr. Justin Kelly

At least. If we move to that, we will obviously try to prioritise training for people who are in the areas that have been affected by this.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I appreciate that. It is very helpful.

I have listened so much to Mr. Lynch and Ms Lynch in the media and read their statements. If there was one change they would like to see brought in as quickly as possible as part of all of these issues, what would that priority be?

Ms Siobhan Lynch

Grace's Law needs to be enforced. Otherwise, what is the point?

Mr. Martin Lynch

My priority is the sale. The whole problem is with the sale.

An Cathaoirleach

The sale of scrambler-type bikes.

Mr. Martin Lynch

Electric scramblers, scramblers, scooters, e-bikes - they are all too easy to get. You can buy them online and they will be delivered to your door.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Of course, there is no log of any of this.

Mr. Martin Lynch

There is no registration system. E-scooters are set at 20 km/h. That is the legal limit. The ones in the shops go from 65 km/h up to 90 km/h.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That should be banned.

Mr. Martin Lynch

Electric bikes and electric scramblers go up to 120 km/h and are never going to be legal, so I do not know why they are legally allowed to be sold in the first place.

Deputy Tom Brabazon

I thank all the witnesses, particularly Martin and Siobhan Lynch. I again offer my condolences on their loss. I thank them most sincerely for their very strong advocacy. It has been unstinting and I have nothing but the height of admiration for them and what they have done since the loss of their beautiful daughter Grace. My condolences go out to anybody who has lost a child in such circumstances. It is tragic, it should never have happened and as a society, we should ensure that it does not happen again.

This afternoon, we have heard that there are still gaps between legislation and enforcement and between legislation and training. We need a collective and societal approach to this problem. It is not just down to the Government, the Legislature, Garda enforcement, education, the courts or communities. There needs to be a collective effort. My first instinct across all of those is that if we can establish or encourage members of our communities who are affected by this to report to either the Garda confidential line, local Garda stations or 999 that these bikes are being held in various locations, it will help. That message needs to get out there.

Mr. Lynch discussed sale and supply. What issues has he found? I know that he has done a lot of research on this. What do we need to change?

Mr. Martin Lynch

They are easily available. There are guys posting TikTok videos who are travelling to China, going straight to the factory and advertising the bikes before they even get back here. It is a case of showing what they are bringing back. The bikes go at incredible speeds. They are not road legal. People who use them have no licences, pay no motor tax and have no insurance. Nobody is going to stop them as it stands because they might get hurt, but nobody seems to think about the people they could hurt. That is what really annoys us. You can go on to any advertising platform - all the big ones. You can google "e-scrambler" or "scrambler" and they will all pop up and be delivered to your door. There is no regulation. They do not care who they sell to. Even though the legal age to use an e-scooter is 16, just walk down the road and you will see ten- and 11-year-olds swinging out of scooters, two on each. Electric scramblers will whizz by you. In Dublin 1, you will see them. The Deputy knows the streets near the Five Lamps. They go up and down on actual motorbikes as well and they are not stopped. It is happening in Finglas, Cabra, and all the other usual spots in Dublin. They are just running amok and nobody is doing anything about it. Even if they are confiscated, they will just replace them because they are so easy to get. That is the problem.

Deputy Tom Brabazon

I know that the Garda's resources are limited for the next number of months because of the EU Presidency but is there anything more that can be done? On the way from my constituency of Dublin Bay North through the north inner city, I see these scramblers everywhere I go, with lads ballied up. They have no respect for anyone, not even themselves because they are not wearing helmets. It gives the impression that there is no control. These guys are most likely running illicit drugs from A to B and it just looks like nobody is in charge of the place. For me as a public representative, it is very disconcerting to get that feeling and I know the public is very frustrated by it because it looks like nobody is in charge.

Mr. Justin Kelly

It would probably be useful if I spoke about what enforcement we were undertaking. Obviously, I do not disagree with anything the Deputy said. The operation I spoke to earlier - our co-ordinated intelligence operation - is the safest way for us to do it at the moment. I will give the Deputy a snapshot of June. As part of this operation, we seized 89 vehicles and operated 44 checkpoints and 264 proactive patrols in Dublin. This year to date, we have seized 382 vehicles in Dublin and 1,472 in the country as a whole, so there is a lot of enforcement.

Another important part of this are our days of action. On these days of action, we concentrate on one particular area, bring many gardaí together and do exactly what the Deputy refers to. We act on information provided by members of the public. Sometimes, we go to places where there are multiple vehicles, such as scramblers and e-scooters. This year to date in Dublin, we have had ten of these big days of action. To give a sense of that, that was 52 house searches to try to get these back. In those searches, we got 180 vehicles. Those have all been seized and taken off the roads. I spoke about the difficulties around pursuit and how we might try to resolve some of them, but these days of action and the intelligence-led stuff are really important.

Some of the new approaches at which we are looking involve the use of things like drones and DNA tagging. I have spoken about these before but we have made some progress on them. I will briefly update the committee.

DNA spray is a spray we can fire at quite a decent distance and target someone. It saves us getting into those dangerous pursuits where people, other members of the public, can get injured. We had representatives from a company over here in March and got a briefing from them. I have approved a pilot of the spray within An Garda Síochána. The Garda College is currently doing the training with the vendor. We are hoping to have that out before the end of the year. We will be doing this anyway, so that is one thing. We will be using this spray in areas being affected and we will be identifying people. We will then follow up and make the arrests.

Drones are the other thing. As all the members will know, the legislation came in in 2024. On 1 July, we were very happy to see the Minister introduce the statutory instrument for the code of practice. This allows us to use video footage from aerial platforms, from drones effectively. We have, for the first time, set up a drone unit in An Garda Síochána. We have purchased the drones and we have dedicated people working with them. The next step is to move the drones into the areas. We are going to use drones, and we are working on that. Even before we get to that, we have new aircraft and a helicopter that we will be using in some of our operations, particularly in areas in Dublin. We will use them to identify people, track them back to their homes, conduct follow-up searches and make arrests. We will try to get as many of these vehicles off the streets as possible and make arrests for dangerous driving, if we can, without getting into dangerous pursuits.

I did say that 75% of the pursuits go ahead, but we have had some very dangerous incidents involving them. When we are out there, we try to do our best but, unfortunately, the driving of the person we are pursuing is sometimes outrageous. Only last week, we had an incident where, unfortunately, a bystander, a member of the public, was badly injured in a Garda pursuit. That leads to all the things I spoke about earlier. For us, at the moment, the focus has to be on these intelligence-led operations, the days of action and the use of novel things like drones and DNA spraying. That is what we are working towards.

E-scooters are a whole other area. I have quite strong opinions on e-scooters that I can certainly share if the committee wishes.

An Cathaoirleach

We might come to that. I thank the Commissioner.

Senator Michael McDowell

I welcome Mr. and Mrs Lynch here today and express my condolences to them on the shocking thing that happened to Grace. I thank them for being here and for what they are doing.

I have a question for the Commissioner. Under the Road Traffic Act, a public place is part of the definition of "dangerous driving", including dangerous driving causing death and the lot. In that Act, as distinct from the public order Act, "public space" is defined as a "place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission". How does that square with taking effective action in relation to parks and places like that where there is not a right of access with a vehicle? To me, the definition seems to be inadequate because dangerous driving in a public park or somewhere like that is not an offence under section 53 of the Road Traffic Act. The other point is that gardaí may find it difficult to follow scramblers into these places to chase them and things like that. Does the Commissioner have anything to say about that?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I thank the Senator for the questions. I will take the second part first. The Senator is 100% right that it is very difficult in those locations for us to physically pursue someone. In parks, as everyone will know, these scramblers are going under barriers, through bollards, through gaps in fences and down laneways. Even if we do manage to get in to follow and pursue, these are the types of actions they take. This is well documented.

In relation to the legislation, the 2026 regulations place us on quite a firm footing in this regard because these vehicles can only be used on private land. Everything else is fair game. We are, therefore, on quite strong ground here. While the Senator is again absolutely right, inevitably, the way these things work is that there is a combination of off-road and on-road activity. Scramblers are followed for a period and then they go into a park, or they will start in a park and come out onto the road. Again, as members will know, it is not like the behaviour on the road is good and the behaviour in the park is bad.

Senator Michael McDowell

My point is that if the offence of dangerous driving causing serious bodily injury or death is being charged, it has to be a place where the public has a right of access with a vehicle. I know what the Commissioner is saying about this particular regulation applying to all land. The prohibition does apply to all land but the offences only apply to public spaces for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I will turn to my colleagues, the deputy commissioner and the assistant commissioner, to see if they can shed any further light on the situation.

Dr. Shawna Coxon

No, I cannot add anything other than to thank the Senator for raising the issue. It is something that should be considered. I thank the Senator.

Senator Michael McDowell

What happens to the bikes that are seized? Are they sold back into the market or are they destroyed?

Mr. Justin Kelly

Under the new regulations, we got the power of seizure, which is very good. Within a period of two months, the person from whom a bike is seized can apply to the District Court to get it back. These applications are often contested. We vigorously oppose them, and it is then a matter for the District Court judge whether the bikes are returned or not. That is our experience. We store them in the meantime. It differs slightly depending on what legislation the vehicles are seized under. Under the new regulations for the scramblers, that is how it works.

Senator Michael McDowell

Do they eventually go to an auction?

Mr. Justin Kelly

Yes. I will double-check. My apologies, they are destroyed. If no application is made within two months or if the contested application is lost, then it moves to destruction. The thing about this is that it eats up our resources all the time. We have gardaí down in the District Court now dealing with applications concerning this type of activity.

Senator Michael McDowell

I thank the Commissioner.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I welcome all the witnesses and thank them for taking the time to be here. I also welcome Siobhán and Martin, and I again sympathise with them, as others have, on the tragic loss of their dear daughter. I have nothing but the height of admiration for everything they have done since then. They are trying to ensure that other families do not have to walk the road they are walking and will be walking. I sincerely commend them on that.

Starting with the Commissioner, I will dig a wee bit deeper into the statistics supplied to us in relation to the number of vehicles seized, etc. Have we an idea of the age group of the culprits offending?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I do not have that information to hand but we could certainly look at the statistics. We sometimes have to make amendments to the PULSE system, on which we record things, to get some information. We could certainly look at getting it. We have the numbers of people we have prosecuted, so we would certainly know the ages of those prosecuted. We would certainly know that.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

Are we talking about them being above or below the age of 16?

Mr. Justin Kelly

We would have people in both categories. I just do not have those statistics to hand. If they are readily available, we can certainly get them for the Senator.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I am concerned that some young people aged 16, or even those aged below 18, would not have the money to purchase these vehicles. I am assuming that, so other people are buying them for them. In most instances, one would imagine that it is their parents or a family relative buying these vehicles for them. The responsibility also lies with the adults purchasing these vehicles. For example, if I were to buy a bottle of vodka for a 14-year-old, I would be committing an offence. If I buy one of these e-scooters for a 14-year-old, am I committing an offence?

Mr. Justin Kelly

That is one of the problems we face. In the last two years, I think we prosecuted, just in relation to e-scooters, about 135 under-16-year-olds. As the Deputy knows, you have to be over 16 to use an e-scooter. One of the things that we certainly know from some of the work we have done is that it is adults purchasing these vehicles for children, as the Senator correctly said. When we go to retailers the defence is generally that they sold the vehicle to an adult.

There is an offence that adults can be liable for. One thing we have done is we have written to all school principals and boards of management in primary and secondary schools and informed them about the potential offences the children and parents are committing. We have done that to try to raise awareness about it.

The statistics for adult prosecutions indicate that we have prosecuted 16 people for that. That is for an adult who has facilitated this, and there were 135 prosecutions of under-16s. For under-18s, a lot of them go through the juvenile liaison scheme anyway. Therefore, the number of offences we are dealing with will be far greater than that. That is the situation.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I am sure we are not the only country grappling with this issue. Is the Commissioner aware of any other jurisdictions where there is an example of best practice we should be mirroring here?

Mr. Justin Kelly

We are seeing a lot of commentary and reporting at conferences about e-scooters and the problems with them. Many countries have already banned off-road vehicles anyway, so they were already in that position. In the UK, you cannot use e-scooters at all. The only ones you can use are those run by companies in some cities, so the UK is different from us. Many countries have requirements on helmets and registration. You have to register the e-scooter, and it must have a number on it. Some countries that brought in legislation on e-scooters have now reversed it. Some big cities in Europe, for example, Prague and Amsterdam, have reversed a lot of the legislation. In the United States and Australia there is different legislation in different places, but some places have outright bans on them.

From the point of view of An Garda Síochána, there are number of issues with e-scooters. The first is the crime. As one of the members referenced earlier, they are being used widely by people for drug dealing, not just in the city but in some of our small towns. They use them for drug-related intimidation. We see people arriving up to someone's front door on e-scooters and making speedy getaways. The road traffic laws are being flouted by people on e-scooters. I do not need to tell anyone here that. People are doing it left, right and centre, at every junction, and it is completely different from how cyclists behave.

Another issue is injuries to members of the public. Again, this has been well publicised. The Road Safety Authority has indicated that one quarter of regular users have been involved in a collision. The majority of severe injuries are in children aged between 12 and 15. We also heard recently from consultants in Temple Street children's hospital - I think Mr. Lynch referenced this earlier - who have called for an outright ban on e-scooters. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, has said that nothing is off the table with this and an outright ban is being considered. From our point of view of An Garda Síochána, we will police whatever the legislation is. The legislation currently allows for e-scooters.

We have had members of An Garda Síochána who were trying to deal with this issue being injured themselves. We have had members prosecuted with regard to e-scooters, which I spoke about earlier. For all of those reasons, I would certainly be on the same page as the consultants. Of course, there are wider issues for legislators and the Government to deal with, about how people transport themselves to work and people making a living from selling and repairing these vehicles. However, my personal view as Garda Commissioner is that, on balance, there is so much harm being done by these-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you for that, Commissioner. Senator Gallagher might come back in for a second round of follow-up questions.

Deputy Catherine Callaghan

I first address Mr. Lynch and Ms Lynch. I thank them for coming to share their story. I cannot imagine what they have been going through. I have been sitting here thinking about my 16-year-old daughter who will turn 17 tomorrow. That is something they will never share with Grace. I ask them to speak to the parents out there who may be considering purchasing a scrambler bike or an e-scooter for their child. What would they say to them?

Ms Siobhan Lynch

They are setting their child up on a suicide mission. They have basically given their child a weapon and told their child they might see them today and they might see them tomorrow. These are dangerous. If you would not hand your child a gun or something else you know could kill them, why would you hand them that? They have seen my child die and they have seen people out there with severe injuries. I have been talking publicly every day since Grace died about how many fatalities there are from these. I have had people contact me numerous times in relation to near misses with these. They rang the gardaí and they do nothing about it. The reason is that they cannot be pursued. These parents know they are letting their children out on them. They are aged 10 and 11 and you see two of them on a bike. They have no chance.

I have parents telling me their child is responsible. Saying your child is responsible is a silly remark to make when you are sending them out on these things that can go at 60 or 70 mph and probably more. They have no helmet, no protection, nothing. They are not using them to go back and forward to school. We know that. If I was to give a message to a parent out there, it would be, "Stop". Otherwise, they are the ones who are going to be in the graveyard visiting their child. It is inevitable. It is going to happen. I never thought I would be in this position. Grace's father never thought we would be in this position. As the Deputy said, my daughter should have been 17 a few weeks ago. They are not giving their child a chance, and they clearly could not love them. To these parents it is a case that they bought it so the child should go and use it. Personally, I would just take it off them. I would love to see them banned.

Deputy Catherine Callaghan

That is a very strong statement, and I thank Ms Lynch for sharing it with us. Mr. Lynch spoke about the sale of these vehicles. As legislators, is it our role to ensure there is a greater onus on online marketplaces to withhold and uphold the law and regulations?

Mr. Martin Lynch

At the moment, they act as middlemen. There is no responsibility at all. I brought this up with the Tánaiste recently and asked him to give us a breakdown of what was imported into the country since 2023 in each category of scooters, bikes, scramblers, etc. The answer was that the authorities did not know because nothing is registered. They have no idea of the number of these vehicles in the country. That just boggles the mind. They are bringing in God know what from God knows where and very few are distinct. The majority are black. They are ridden by people with their hoods up, or wearing balaclavas or scarves, or sometimes t-shirts over their faces. If you get hit, what are you going to say? The vehicle was black, and the rider had a hood. If the person dies no one is going to be held responsible.

Deputy Catherine Callaghan

I thank Mr. Lynch. Those are very strong words. I turn to the Commissioner. How does he respond to that?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I had the honour of meeting Mr. Lynch. He came to my office. I have discussed a lot of the issues with him at length. I explained our position and what we are trying to do, which are some of the things I spoke about earlier. What Mr. and Ms Lynch went through is obviously absolutely harrowing. From our point of view, we are trying to do everything we can. As I said, my view on e-scooters is that we would be better off as a society without them. It is my job as the Garda Commissioner not to look at everything, but just at the public safety element. From the point of view of public safety and as the Garda Commissioner, I agree with some of the others calling for a ban on them. I appreciate there are wider elements to consider, but that is my view and that view is shared by our senior team.

We have huge concerns around all of this and the difficulties. Certainly, in the short term we do not see it getting any better. We are working around the enforcement as best we can.

Another aspect is that all the operations I have spoken about - the seizures and the house searches - is time during which we are not dealing with domestic violence, organised crime, human trafficking and we are not responding to calls if someone is afraid in their house if someone is in their back garden. It is affecting everything for us. We are spending a huge amount of our time and effort on this. A few people have touched on how this is a societal thing. Ms Lynch is absolutely right. There are parents who see their kids walking out the side of the house or out the front door with scramblers and e-scooters. They are absolutely complicit in some of what goes on because they let them do this, particularly with the scrambler bikes.

Deputy Catherine Callaghan

When I asked that question I was wondering what we could do to help. If funding were made available in the morning to senior management in An Garda Síochána, where would the Commissioner invest it and for what reason?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I am glad to say funding is not an issue. That is one thing. Certainly, the Department of justice has never put a barrier in my way around funding on this issue. The things I have spoken about here on the protection of members of An Garda Síochána is a matter for the legislators. The position around e-scooters is a matter for legislators. We will police whatever the laws are. We welcome the developments around scramblers. It has helped us in some way. We have a way to go for all the reasons I spoke about earlier. There will be an improvement around law enforcement when we get all the things I have spoken about done. However, it is not going to solve the issue unless there is education and a bit of societal responsibility around it. The e-scooters is another thing. I want to be extremely clear that from my view we would certainly be better off without them from a policing point of view.

Deputy Catherine Callaghan

I am from Carlow, so I know exactly.

Senator Garret Kelleher

As a father of four young children, I begin by expressing my condolences to Mr. and Ms Lynch on the passing of their beautiful daughter, Grace. I compliment them on their tireless campaigning, which cannot have been easy, for the last five and a half or six months. Our job here is to listen to them to try to improve the laws and close the legal loopholes Mr. Lynch referred to in his opening statement, which are being taken advantage of by vendors and those engaged in criminality, and to catch up with modern practices in relation to the use of scramblers, e-scooters and e-bikes. We must ensure our legislation is as robust as possible.

I was listening to Mr. Lynch on "Morning Ireland" this morning. He spoke superbly. His focus during the course of that interview was on the sale. In the letter he submitted to the committee, he made reference to the fact that e-scooters are advertised with top speeds of 65 km/h. That is more than three times the legal limit of 20 km/h. It also noted the discrepancies in the capabilities and licensing of e-bikes and electric motorcycles. Regarding where An Garda Síochána stands with the licensing at present, what can we do and what experience is An Garda Síochána having out there with the capabilities of e-bikes, e-scooters and scramblers, where it is quite obvious that the law is being broken given the capability and capacity of these vehicles? How can we act to improve law enforcement around that?

Mr. Justin Kelly

From a law enforcement point of view, I said my view is that we should not have these whatsoever. However, if that is not the case, there should be registration. That is in existence in some countries. I appreciate it is not going to be easy to do, particularly retrospectively and given the number of them. The second thing is around the injuries. E-scooters are now the leading cause of traumatic brain injuries in children in Ireland, which is staggering, but there is no legislation around the use of a helmet. One of the recommendations An Garda Síochána made a number of years ago before the legislation came in was that this should be in place. These are two fairly obvious things that should be in place.

Regarding retailers, they can sell scramblers for use off-road. They are not legal on-road but they can sell them for off-road use. It is difficult to see what could be done with retailers with the scramblers. With the e-scooters, my understanding is there is no legislation for An Garda Síochána to become involved with people who modify them or sell them above the speed they are allowed to do. To try to deal with some of that, we spoke to colleagues in the police in the Netherlands who have dynamometers, which can test the power of the e-scooters, and if they are over the power limit we can seize them. We purchased four of these. We have one in each region. We are in the process of procuring more of them. We use them to test the power and seize e-scooters from people. The retailer is definitely a gap. There are a whole range of issues. It is probably outside my competence around EU legislation and retail, etc.

Senator Garret Kelleher

Forgive me for interrupting; I will ask two very quick questions. In relation to the number of gardaí who are now qualified and have received adequate training for the pursuit of people breaking the law using these vehicles in public places, or who are suspected of breaking the law, what is the situation at the moment?

An Cathaoirleach

Be as brief as you can be, Commissioner.

Mr. Justin Kelly

We have relatively small numbers who are trained but they are in specialist units and not in front-line units.

Senator Garret Kelleher

What is the process for a member of the force seeking permission to go on a pursuit and the difficulties we could improve upon or that might arise at present?

Mr. Justin Kelly

At the moment the system is quite good. We look at the danger to members of An Garda Síochána, the public, the situation, the scenario going on and the environmental situation. The garda has to get permission from the communication centre. Once they get that permission they can pursue. They have to relay back to the communication centre what is going on. The communication people are trained whether to allow that pursuit or not. It can sometimes be too dangerous to continue a ground pursuit but if we have a helicopter or plane up, it can continue to monitor until we get them back to an address. That is how it works.

Deputy Paula Butterly

How many gardaí is the force actually short, in the estimation of the Commissioner, to effectively and efficiently police our roads and streets?

Mr. Justin Kelly

At the moment, we have 649 gardaí dedicated to roads policing and we have 11 in our Garda National Roads Policing Bureau, which gives a total of 660. They are obviously spread right across the country. It is important to note that is the biggest specialist unit number we have in any specialism. That is bigger than organised crime and immigration put together. It is the biggest one we have in the whole organisation. Only last week we put another 13 gardaí into roads policing in Dublin. One of the things I have asked Ms Gunne, who is the assistant commissioner in charge of roads policing, to do is a root-and-branch review of roads policing following the Crowe report, which highlighted some of our inadequacies. My focus is getting the absolute best out of the 660 people we have.

Deputy Paula Butterly

Does Mr. Kelly not think there is any shortage of gardaí on the streets or the roads?

Mr. Justin Kelly

We certainly need to bolster it but where I see the most important bolstering of that is around the management of it, to get the best work out of those 660 people.

The reality is there is an important deterrent element and there is an enforcement end to roads policing, but it is not possible for a uniformed garda to be on every road and every back road in the whole country. That is just not possible. The other really important thing to remember is 60% of all our detections around roads policing are not made by roads policing units. They are actually made by our front-line people. Of all the arrests we make for drunk driving, intoxication and dangerous driving, 75% are made by front-line policing. It is not roads policing.

From every intake from the Garda College we are putting more people into the front line. We are doing really well around recruitment numbers now. That gives us the ability to get more people on the front line. That improves all those detections and gives us the ability to put more people into specialist units like roads policing. However, I am obviously here today talking about roads policing. Next week I could be talking about domestic violence and I will have Deputies saying we should put more people into that. The following week it could be immigration and the next week organised crime. The only reason I say that is there are competing demands for all the numbers. My focus is on the management structure in the control of our roads policing units. We have done quite a considerable review of that. We are putting additional inspectors in who are just dedicated to roads policing. This is new personnel at middle management-----

Deputy Paula Butterly

Sorry, there are other questions I want to ask as well.

Mr. Justin Kelly

Sorry.

Deputy Paula Butterly

Is the Commissioner saying he has no shortage of gardaí and he will focus more on management than boots on the ground?

Mr. Justin Kelly

No. I would never say we have no shortage of gardaí. Every section-----

Deputy Paula Butterly

I am going to look at community policing which goes hand in hand with road policy for exactly the reasons the Commissioner says. The eyes and ears on the ground working with communities to build up trust is fundamental. It is the one thing people always complain about. Every time there are new recruits, people say there are not enough. I accept you cannot police every road but the same problems that happen in Dublin city happen on the by-roads and high roads of every county-----

Mr. Justin Kelly

Absolutely.

Deputy Paula Butterly

-----from Louth to Galway and Sligo to Cork. I cannot imagine that 660 gardaí in roads policing is anywhere near enough.

Going back to the societal issue of parents buying scooters, I agree there should be a ban but if we were to legislate and ban scooters, where do we put the onus? Do we put it on the person, particularly an adolescent, or do we put the penalty on the parent? That is a question for every witness.

Mr. Michael Noonan

I will comment on that. Vehicles, whether it is an e-scooter or scrambler, are all propelled by a mechanical means. I will take this very simply. The Road Traffic Act is quite specific about a “mechanically propelled vehicle”. It is simple and straightforward. Many years ago the State brought in compulsory registration of off-road tractors and discovered 6,500 they did not know anything about. Moving forward because you cannot go backwards, there are two things to do. One is sales. All vehicles have a serial number or a vehicle identification number, VIN. I see it in the European Parliament and I am aware of that. I see no issue with registration and the issuing of a log book. Whoever purchases the vehicle is the registered owner and keeper and they are responsible. That does two further things. Gardaí seize vehicles and parents can come in and get the vehicles back. That has changed with some of the legislation but that has always been an issue. We put this forward ten years ago, so it is not new, whereby all the vehicles are registered and anyone who sells in this country must be licensed to sell. They are licensed to sell alcohol, cigarettes and anything at all like that. We would have two catch features to identify who the registered keeper is.

The biggest trade in what I call illicit activity and parts is in the racing world because the motorbikes are not registered and therefore there is a big culture of stealing to order for parts, etc. In terms of the storage of these vehicles, they are robbed and kept in public parks where gardaí do not have access. They cannot drive their cars in. There is a very simple thing. If the weather is bad and we have snow, if you go out walking in your shoes you cannot walk properly. I have driven those bikes and I have raced them. They are highly aggressive machines and in the right hands can do anything. I would not expect any garda to stand out in front of one of them - end of story. There is no way on earth they can be chased or pursued with the ordinary domestic vehicles gardaí use. If you look at Manchester, for example, they have given them CB350s, which have only a small engine. The police operate in pairs and they take them down.

There are specialist units in the Garda, like the public order unit and the armed response unit, ARU. The guy in the ARU does not carry a gun on his own licence. He is trained and certified by the Garda and authorised to use that. That element can be removed and gardaí authorised under a licensing system like the Army. The Army drives on an Army licence. I do not see why it cannot apply to State drivers. If a garda is licensed like that, the ordinary premise around outrageous driving will come into it, as the Commissioner observed. If a garda is registered with a Garda licence and the powers given to them, whether it is in Ballybough or Tymon North, and it is the usual story of someone who is garbed up and engaged in illicit activity, they will not be given the immunity that happens to me or Joe Soap in our own vehicle. There will be no enforcement otherwise. I would not put my own life at risk if I were a garda and I deal with plenty in the context of various things.

Mr. Leo Lieghio

I would put the onus on the parents because they are the ones buying the bikes for the kids. The scramblers should be immediately destroyed, never mind a two-month appeal process. They are a danger. If they are caught red-handed using them illegally, they should be destroyed straight away to get them off the roads.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I thank Siobhan and Martin for coming to the committee today. I cannot imagine where they get the courage.

I have a couple of questions for the Commissioner. A couple of months ago, the Minister for justice said some parts of Dublin are just unsafe or are less safe than others. Does the Commissioner think he is referring to the parts of Dublin where we see the prevalence of scramblers over the weekend, such as the north inner city, Finglas, Coolock and Cabra? Does he have the manpower to ensure that communities feel safe?

Mr. Justin Kelly

To answer the second part of the question, we are definitely going in the right direction around resources. We have definitely increased numbers in some of the areas the Deputy spoke about. In Finglas, for example, where Grace’s family is from, since March we put 28 extra gardaí there. We have another cohort of gardaí coming in shortly and more gardaí will be going to the division out there. Our high-visibility policing that we have started, particularly in the north and south inner city and other areas of Dublin, has been really effective. Of course, there are really challenging situations in some areas of Dublin but we are working through them using some of the enforcement methods I spoke about earlier.

Deputy Gary Gannon

The GRA has said Grace’s Law is effectively unenforceable in the absence of pursuit training. Does the Commissioner agree?

Mr. Justin Kelly

To an extent. The training is an important thing we have to get done. I have responsibility as Commissioner to get this done. I have given a commitment we will do it. Earlier, I said that at the end of the EU Presidency, at the end of the year, is probably when we will realistically start doing that.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Will it be in this jurisdiction or will it have to be sent out?

Mr. Justin Kelly

No, we will do it here. We have well-established Garda driver instructor trainers. Usually, we send them somewhere where they do a train-the-trainer type set-up and come back when they have picked up the expertise. We are working through that at the moment with our driving school, our Garda College and our director of training, to put together that package and see how that looks. That is what we are doing at the moment.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I have heard it said already that parents are buying scramblers, and that should be condemned, but we also know that drug dealers are buying scramblers for children to transport drugs. What evidence do we have? How are we getting in front of it? What are we doing?

Mr. Justin Kelly

We are proactively targeting groups that are dealing.

It is important to know that we have been successful on the international and transnational stuff and the big, high-end groups that have been well-publicised. We also have to focus on what is going on in the street and the dealing on the street. The focus is not on the users but on those who are moving drugs around, using e-scooters, intimidating people, engaging in drug-related intimidation and doing horrendous things to family members. We have a number of operations targeting them. Unfortunately, two gardaí were injured while intervening in cases involving e-scooter people dealing drugs. We are certainly putting effort into it.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Does Mr. Kelly think the drug dealers who are coercing young people into crime and selling drugs know about the absence of a capacity to pursue that probably will not be changed until after the EU Presidency?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I doubt it, to be honest.

Deputy Gary Gannon

It seems that way.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I would not like to say that it is blindingly obvious, but it obvious to anyone that it is easy to get away from police if you are on an e-scooter or scrambler that can go through a park or go down laneways. Gardaí are in cars or on foot. They do not even need to know any of that stuff around the training. That is not why they are using them for drugs. They know it is easy to ferry them around. Since e-scooters came in, it is definitely part of the modus operandi of low-level drug dealing.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I listened to an interview recently about the level of intimidation and abuse Mr. Lynch and Ms Lynch have faced subsequent to Grace's death. Would they mind telling us a little bit about that?

Ms Siobhan Lynch

It started at the beginning when I was campaigning on this. It was coming through social media, a lot of it through TikTok. AI photographs of Grace on a scrambler were posted, captioned with "In loving memory". I was told I would have my windows smashed. They said they would put me where Grace was and told me I should shut my mouth. They said they were glad my daughter was rammed. They asked whether she walked backward or forward, whether she did not see or hear the scrambler and whether she was thick. A man made up a story that Grace was with him in a sexual relationship and that she was pregnant by him when she died. He talked about her boobs. It was off the scale. I was told I was a drug addict and cocaine user. It was all reported to An Garda. Basically, I was told there was not much the Garda could do about it and I could take a civil case against him, as if I am not going through enough. The gardaí had their user numbers and ID numbers. It should be their job to look into that. My life was threatened. My husband and I are only trying to better our streets in order that parents never see what we have seen, when Grace was lying there that day. No one should see a human back to front.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I am so sorry. The authorities and the State should come down heavily on anybody who is engaging in that behaviour against Siobhan and Martin.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I move on to some non-members, I will ask a few questions. I will reiterate everything that has been said and thank Mr. and Ms Lynch for all they have been doing to raise awareness of this issue. This is a period in which they should not have to do any of this. Following the loss of a child, they should be grieving. We are conscious that their efforts will, hopefully, prevent other families from going through what they are going through. I have a simple question. Prior to Grace's death, was the issue of scramblers in their community a concern? Was it something that people would have generally been speaking about prior to the incident?

Mr. Martin Lynch

We see them every day in Finglas, Cabra and Ballymun. I used to make a remark. The main road near Dunnes Stores where we live is where they like to go. They blow up and down that road, from one end to the other, doing wheelies and what is beside it but a speed van for the person driving a car. They can go up and down, pop wheelies and do donuts and not a thing is done to them, but a driver who goes at 51 km/h will get a ticket in the post. They can do what they want.

An Cathaoirleach

From their own experience, since the incident that resulted in Grace's death, has the situation improved or worsened in respect of the prevalence of scramblers?

Ms Siobhan Lynch

It is worse.

Mr. Martin Lynch

It improved for a couple of weeks, and then we were back to record levels. It has got worse. The attitude is now that they do not care and they will do what they want.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. and Ms Lynch again. The Commissioner mentioned that 382 vehicles were confiscated in Dublin this year. Is that correct?

Mr. Justin Kelly

That is in Dublin this year to date.

An Cathaoirleach

How many of those vehicles would be scramblers or that type of vehicle?

Mr. Justin Kelly

That number is a combination of scramblers and e-scooters. I do not have the figures.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

It was 94 in the first quarter.

Mr. Justin Kelly

Of the vehicles confiscated, 287 were e-bikes, 1,412 were e-scooters, 26 were quad bikes and 180 were scramblers.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that in Dublin specifically?

Mr. Justin Kelly

That is nationwide.

An Cathaoirleach

How many of them would have been subsequently returned? Does the Commissioner have those figures?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I do not have those figures.

An Cathaoirleach

Maybe the Commissioner could get those figures for the committee. It would be useful.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I can certainly look to get them. It may be challenging to get them because we would have to look at each individual one and see what the outcome was.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Commissioner know how many were destroyed?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I do not have those numbers here, but we can certainly see what we can get for the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

Surely those figures would be easier to get. The Commissioner stated a number of times today that he would like to see e-scooters banned. That is an ongoing debate and a matter that this committee will also consider. Scramblers are banned in public places. As the evidence shows, they are being used on a widespread basis across this city in particular, specifically in working class communities, and beyond. What is the benefit of banning e-scooters? Is there not a fear that the only people affected by a ban on e-scooters would be those who use them in a lawful, safe way coming home from work? They are the people who will obey any such law. Those who use e-scooters for nefarious reasons will continue to use them unless there are the policies, resources, powers and wherewithal to decide that we are going to crack down on this.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I agree, to an extent. Regarding the conversation around banning, we will enforce whatever the legislation is. Obviously there is quite a complex and wide conversation around this. There would be unintended consequences and people who use e-scooters lawfully and with good intentions would be affected. It is looking at the balance, and it has certainly tipped over, particularly around the drug dealing, as we have spoken about. For us, particularly when I look at Dublin inner city, it would be manageable for us to start seizing them. It would certainly be more manageable than scramblers.

An Cathaoirleach

I will move on because I am conscious of time. Mr. Rowland has got off lightly today. Looking at his opening statement, does he agree that the Road Safety Authority has not given this issue the focus it deserves? Families and doctors in children's hospitals are doing what the Road Safety Authority should have been doing, which is shining a light on just how dangerous these vehicles can be.

Mr. Michael Rowland

The Road Safety Authority has been very involved in highlighting this issue. As regards e-scooters, we were involved in the recommendations in terms of the legislation that govern e-scooters. In terms of the medics the Cathaoirleach mentioned, we engaged with Children's Health Ireland when it raised this issue first. We engaged in a high-profile campaign with Children's Health Ireland. We are planning a new campaign with Dr. Irwin Gill from Children's Health Ireland. We have been publicising these particular issues. Our job is education, awareness and research. We have been doing that. I know the Commissioner mentioned that it has to be a whole-of-government or a societal approach, and I agree. We educate and make people aware.

We do the research, look at the data, publish it and publicise it, and make recommendations.

An Cathaoirleach

I am conscious of time. At the moment there are eight non-members in the room. Assuming they all want to speak, we will have to limit contributions to two minutes. I apologise in advance that I will need to cut off answers, if necessary. I acknowledge the presence of the Cathaoirleach of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Deputy Michael Murphy. I invite him to contribute.

Deputy Michael Murphy

I thank the Chair. My time is limited. I acknowledge Mr. and Ms Lynch's advocacy and courage and offer my condolences. They mentioned increasing maximum sentences from ten to 14 years. There have been almost 200 cases of dangerous driving causing death in the past five years. I fully support that call. It is a key request of the Committee on Transport and I sincerely hope the Minister will include that increase from ten to 14 years in the upcoming road traffic Bill and align us with Northern Ireland. It is not right that people who have been disqualified from driving and serve a prison sentence can serve the disqualification concurrently. That needs to change so the disqualification period only begins after the offender is released from prison.

From my interpretation of his evidence about an outright ban on e-scooters on public roads, the Commissioner has been very clear. In a personal capacity, I am putting on the record that I fully support it because, ultimately, this is about the enforcement of Grace's Law and the resources available to An Garda Síochána. What are Mr. and Ms Lynch's views on an outright ban of e-scooters on public roads in the context of meaningful enforcement of Grace's Law?

Mr. Martin Lynch

The numbers are there about what is happening to children. As a consultant in Temple Street said, in theory no one should be coming through their doors, because they are illegal for use for under-16s, yet one per day is going through Temple Street. The worst cases are traumatic brain injuries. Half of the ICU is taken up with injuries from e-scooters. It has become normal now. That is the sad thing about it. It should be abnormal. We should not hear about it at all, but every day the cases are rolling through the doors of Temple Street and this madness has to stop. Someone has to get it by the scruff of the neck and sort it out because it cannot continue.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

Personally, I want to see them banned. We can ban cigarettes from pubs and places. People did not like smoking because it put other people at risk. This is the same. The onus is definitely on the parents and I would love to see parents being fined, because they are not taking care of their children, and for child benefit and everything to be taken from them, because it is there for a reason. We need to look at that, but I 100% support banning them.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

I thank Mr. and Ms Lynch for being here. I am angry and frustrated. We have been at this for many years because we live in the communities. It is our communities that are affected by this every day, not just today, last week or five or ten years ago. That is how long this has been going on and it has been ignored for all that time. Now, because we have the mixture of illegal e-scooters and e-bikes, in two weeks, the lives of six children have been utterly changed and transformed for the worse. They will never be the same again because of these things. It is very frustrating.

In 2022, I asked the Minister for justice about drones and the answer was that they were being purchased and that we would look at legislation and guidelines. It is 2026 and they are still not in use. Thankfully, they will be in use soon, but we have had them for four years and they are still not in use. Mountain rescue uses them. The Army uses them. We could get coffee delivered by drone until a few weeks ago in Dublin 15. It is frustrating that everything is slow. Everything takes ages and people - children - are dying on our streets and left in a coma.

All over Britain, as was referenced by Mr. Noonan, the police have electric bikes to physically chase people. An Garda Síochána has told the committee already that it does not have the ability to go into parks and get into lanes and so on. When will electric bikes be used? I have asked the Minister for justice on about a dozen occasions so far and I still have not received a clear answer. When will An Garda Síochána get the resources to do this and challenge these people?

Mr. Justin Kelly

Resources for purchase or procurement are certainly not an issue for us. In all the discussions I have had with my people who work in this area, electric bikes have never come up as one of the key solutions to this. The ones I spoke about earlier have, but electric bikes have not. I might turn to Ms Gunne who is-----

Deputy Paul Donnelly

To clarify, I meant electric scramblers. The police have them all over Britain.

Mr. Justin Kelly

It is the Sur-Ron bikes. I understand now. We have trialled some off-road vehicles for gardaí, but it goes back to some of the things I spoke about earlier. Pursuit is very risky. It is risky for the gardaí involved and for other members of the public. As I said, just last week we were involved in a pursuit and an innocent member of the public was injured.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

When do we put public safety higher than the people who do this?

Mr. Justin Kelly

I will be very straight about this. I am the Garda Commissioner and anyone who deals with me knows I have a fairly robust response in policing. However, if the Deputy looks at what goes on in the UK, he will see that they knock people off bikes. I am sure he has seen the footage from the UK of how it is done. If we did that here, the first thing that would happen is that all those gardaí would be prosecuted. They would all be in court, so while I am the Commissioner, we will certainly not be doing that because if I were to ask my members to do it, they would all be going to court. The reality at the moment is, for all the reasons I spoke about earlier, we will not be doing that.

However, I do not want to be overly negative because there are a lot of positive things happening with changes to legislation, which we have all spoken about it, regarding protection for gardaí, a potential ban for e-scooters and some of our new abilities such as drones and DNA tagging and all our operations. There have been 1,865 seizures this year, so a lot is going on.

I will finish by saying that I certainly share the Deputy's frustrations. Not for a minute am I saying we are in a fantastic situation. We certainly are not. My sympathy goes out to the communities. To go back to the communities being affected, the Deputy is absolutely right that the communities are being affected, but it is people in their communities who are doing it. It is people in some of these areas.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

There is a lot of fear.

Mr. Justin Kelly

Yes, but it is their neighbours who are doing it.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

A person who lost her child has been threatened that her windows will be put in. Her life has been threatened. If the Commissioner imagines someone sitting at home will ring and say the chap next door has a-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy. I am conscious that we still have six members to speak and 12 minutes left before our scheduled finish time. I will ask each of the members to speak in turn and then we will give each of our witnesses an opportunity to respond. That is the only fair way, so I will not be cutting people off.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank everyone for their input, especially Mr. and Ms Lynch for bringing forward Grace's Law on the tragic death of their daughter. What they have been doing is hugely courageous.

I will go back to 2011 when I was first elected as a TD. In 2012 and 2013, I brought forward legislation on the illegal use of scramblers, which was rejected. I will not go into the ins and outs of it. We now have electric bikes and they have become a major issue. Just last week, my nephew was knocked down. I arrived at Charlestown and Meakstown. A seven year old on the footpath with his twin brother and mother was knocked down. When we got there, the child was on the ground. It happened on the footpath. Another incident happened up the road at the same time. It has got to the point - I agree with the Commissioner - that they will have to be banned because I cannot see how this can be maintained. All the rules can be put down about registration, but I do not see a large section of our community abiding by it.

That is the problem I have. I will give another example. We had a family that lost their home up in Finglas North recently as a result of an e-bike. Seven people are homeless as a result of an e-bike going on fire and burning down the house. This is not the first time that has happened. The regulations regarding these bikes have to be enforced. We must have registration and ways of tracking these. All of those things need to be done.

I raised this with the Minister for justice. The smart tag was mentioned. I have been raising this for a long time. We need to use this. This has been used in England and there has been a 100% success rate. It is used in riots as well where it is put on people's clothes. It cannot be removed and that is how the rioters are traced. This is a way of tracing people because one of the problems is that while we have done great work in seizing a lot of these in Finglas and Ballymun, and there have been great seizures recently, the people who are going down the road doing wheelies are getting away with it. Apart from the fact that they are not being followed, they are not being targeted and they are getting away with it. We have got to find a better way of targeting them.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I thank the committee for holding this hearing. There is not enough time for me to put all of my admiration and respect for Martin and Siobhan and the work they have done on the record.

I want to specifically stick to the issue of scrambler bikes. Senator McDowell asked the Commissioner about the offence of dangerous driving and the requirement for a public place. The Commissioner's response should have been that the 2023 Act amended the offence of dangerous driving and changed it to a place in which it was driven. I am not trying to catch the Commissioner out, but it shows the confusion that happens at all levels regarding the policing of scramblers. It is so frustrating because as Deputy Donnelly and many of the rest of us said, the 2023 Act was meant to be one of the most robust responses to give gardaí real problems to implement it. It gave them the powers to stop, dismount, seize, remove, store and dispose these vehicles. It gave them the powers to go onto the curtilage of a property without a warrant. It gave them the option to arrest without a warrant. It gave the Garda a mechanism for holding a vehicle for two months, which needed an application to the District Court before it would get released.

In my heart of hearts, and I think the Commissioner will say the same, those full powers have never been properly operationalised by An Garda Síochána and they have never been fully used. Pursuit is always going to be a dangerous point of contact, but we all know the homes where these are stored. With basic policing and a proper operation, we could identify, store, seize and remove these vehicles. That does not require any training or special equipment. It requires resources. I accept that and the Commissioner's bona fides on it. Will the Commissioner provide this committee with statistics regarding the number of times the 2023 Act was used in terms of removals without warrants, offences and so on? I do not believe that it is fully operational or that its full potential has been used, and that is the challenge for the Commissioner going forward.

Deputy Daniel Ennis

I send strength and love always to Martin and Siobhan. I do not know where they get the strength from. It is honestly incredible, as is the work they have done for poor Grace. I am sorry they have had to deal with that type of intimidation.

Before 10 o'clock on Saturday night, I witnessed a pack of eight scramblers and a high-powered motorbike running amok around our country's capital. I went to Store Street station because when I rang 999, there was no response. They were on the North Strand Road for 15 minutes. I saw one unmarked car coming down Fairview. That was it. I went to Store Street station. I then saw them move from the North Strand Road to Portland Row. I heard from other people and the garda I was talking to that they were also on O'Connell Street and Parnell Street, our city's main thoroughfares. That would not be accepted anywhere else across Europe. It simply would not be. They went unchallenged and unopposed. The garda who was on the desk in Store Street station told me that they did not have the resources on a Saturday night in the city centre of Dublin to deal with something like that, so we just let them take over the roads. It is completely unacceptable. This is not me running down An Garda Síochána. It is quite the opposite. We need to give An Garda Síochána the power and the resources to deal with this. A pack of eight scramblers went unchallenged. I am not asking An Garda Síochána to pursue this, but how do we address that? Do we just give over our streets? We just cannot do that.

In terms of Siobhan and Martin's point, it is worse than ever. There is no doubt about it. When I was growing up in the north inner city, we always had a problem. Cabra always had a problem and so did Finglas. It was like it was speckled around different parts of Dublin. Sadly, Finglas, Cabra and the north inner city were always bad, but it is out of control. One of them narrowly missed me. The driver lost control of it. He went up on a wheelie, came back down and lost control of the steering. He went back again and stayed there for 15 minutes after that. How are we going to address this? A lot of us are calling for a dedicated policing unit.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a question well put. I apologise that I am going to have to speed it up, but it is just to give the witnesses an opportunity to respond.

Deputy Rory Hearne

I commend Martin and Siobhan on their incredible bravery. I ask them to continue what they are doing, to not give up and to keep raising their voices because it has to change. I want to back them up as well. From talking to residents in Finglas, it appears there was an initial lull but it is now back as bad as ever.

My question is straightforward and it is for the Commissioner. When will An Garda Síochána get scramblers off our streets and out of our parks? Does the Commissioner have a strategy and a timeframe for that? It has been outlined that the resources are not there. When will the Government, including the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael TDs who are here, give An Garda Síochána the resources to achieve that? When will the timeframe for removing scramblers from our streets and communities come from the Government? That is what is needed.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Martin and Siobhan. I do not know how they can do it, I swear to God. I wish them the best of luck. We will do anything we can to support them.

A couple of weeks ago in Cork, an 89-year-old woman, who will be 90 in August, was knocked to the ground as a scrambler flew past her and scared her dog. She looks out the window now every day to see if she can go for a walk. She lived independently and now her family have to move in with her. The same night, and I raised this in the Dáil two weeks ago, I had to ring 999 three times in the space of two hours due to incidents in three different areas on the northside of Cork city. It is happening right across the city on Kilmore Road and Baker's Road, and in Churchfield and Farranree. We have a park in the Fairfield area. It is a beautiful park. There is a lovely walk around it and there are pitches in the middle. It is ideal, but people are terrified because it is being used as a racetrack.

I will be honest, An Garda Síochána does not have the resources and the Commissioner needs to come out and say it. I am in Cork. Every night I ring the Garda. He can google me. I give my name, date of birth and my PPS number. I give everything so that when I ring, they know who is ringing. Every night and every week, I am ringing about scramblers. Men and women have asked me if we have to get back out on the streets to protect our children because the Garda cannot do it. This is not just Dublin. This is all over working-class areas and it is worse than ever now. The Commissioner made the point that 1,850 were collected. How many were sold in that period? People can go into a toy shop today and buy an electric scooter - a toy shop. The Minister and the Government are not doing their jobs to give An Garda Síochána the resources and powers. Can I also say, that if An Garda Síochána blow them off the road, I have no problem with it.

An Cathaoirleach

Our final speaker, Deputy Ó Murchú, is going to be an example in brevity to us all.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I am well renowned for it. I also commend Siobhan and Martin. It is absolutely necessary work that they are doing, so they cannot stop.

In fairness, we can all give examples. A couple of weeks ago on the inner relief road in Dundalk, there was a scrambler on one wheel going up and down between traffic. I get the difficulties that occur. We had an incident in Dundalk where an eight-year-old was stopped on an e-scooter. It is everywhere. We all know the crossover with criminality and the absolute danger. When I listened to the Commissioner, he spoke about drones, specialist training and tagging. We want to see all of that, but he then also pointed out to Deputy Donnelly the fact that he does not believe he has the framework to work in at the minute, even if he had all that in place to operate with. What does the Commissioner need from the point of view of being able deal with what is out there and impacting detrimentally on our communities?

An Cathaoirleach

Most of the questions in that round related to An Garda Síochána. I ask the Commissioner to respond to as many of those as possible.

He might be in a position to respond in writing to some. Then I will ask Mr. Lynch and Ms Lynch to say final words. My apologies to our other guests if we did not have as many opportunities as we would have liked. It is an area the committee has already agreed to return to in the autumn.

Mr. Justin Kelly

I thank members for all the questions. There is obviously a common theme across many of them. I completely understand the frustrations of the members here and more importantly those of the communities that have been affected.

As an organisation we certainly want to do everything we can to resolve this. There are a number of issues, which I went through earlier, which are barriers in our way. We are trying to work through them. Some of them are legislative and some are on our side to do with training. The protection of gardaí is a very important one. I have said several times that from the organisation's point of view if there was a ban on e-scooters we would certainly be very supportive of that and it would solve a lot of the problems we have. On resourcing, it is not a resourcing issue per se.

Regarding the instance Deputy Ennis went through, which I heard him speak about in the media, I can say straight away there should have been a better response to that. Without a doubt there should have been a response to that. While of course I am not making excuses for it, if I am not mistaken it was around the time of the GAA semi-finals so there were a lot of resources in the north inner city. That is not to excuse it but there should have been a better response to that. We certainly have no intention of ceding our city centre to gangs of people on motorcycles. Despite what I said about problems with pursuit, we should respond robustly to that.

Our focus at the moment is trying to identify people and doing the operations. In the next month we are going to have quite a significant operation using air support that we have never done before. Usually there is a pursuit and the helicopter goes up. We are going to do something completely different. We are going to put the helicopter up and the aircraft up in a number of places. We are going to start in Dublin and we are going to have a very proactive operation. Members will certainly see that quite soon. That is one of the things we are trying to do to address this.

As I said, it is not an easy policing problem to solve. We have of course talked to colleagues in lots of different countries about this and lots of countries are struggling with it. We are not the only ones having difficulties with it. Having said all that, we certainly appreciate and sympathise with communities and we are going to do everything we can to seize more of these and prosecute people to get them off our streets. However, it is not realistic for me to put a timeline on that. There are always people who are going to behave badly. No matter what you do with legislation and enforcement, you are always going to have people who will breach that. That is just the reality.

I hope I have addressed most of the issues there, a Chathaoirligh.

Mr. Martin Lynch

I have listened to all this today and the sale is where it all starts. Until that is sorted out you are still left with the problem. The Garda should not be ruling out pursuits at all. That should be part of the programme. It is not the be-all and end-all but it is part of it. They do it in the UK. They use a multifaceted approach. They use air, they use plainclothes members and they use the electric scrambler bikes to tackle these people. They intercept them, they use the sprays and they use stingers. At the moment we are doing nothing over here. That is the reality. We just let these lads run amok and do what they want and hope for the best. That approach is not good enough and I do not accept that gardaí do not need to pursue. There are circumstances where they need to pursue. More importantly, gardaí need the training. At the moment if a pursuit is rung in there is a control room team who have not got pursuit training and a garda who has not got pursuit training making decisions they are not qualified to make. That is not good enough at all.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

The reason our daughter is dead is they were not pursued. They went around for three hours that day.

Mr. Martin Lynch

Unopposed.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

Unopposed. She is dead because of that. She is dead because of those reasons. Nobody acted on it. They were allowed to run amok. Who cares, it is just somebody's life but now the Garda wants to put the excuse out that they cannot pursue them because they might injure somebody else.

Mr. Martin Lynch

And it is still happening. It has not gone away.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

It is still happening that people are being injured. It is not the riders being injured but the innocent person being injured. It is absolutely ridiculous. We need to cut it off at the source now. As they say, if you can ban everything else in this country and you can make things work in this country then this is something that needs to happen. The ban is there. Grace's Law is there, yet I nearly got killed with my son a few weeks ago by a scrambler. That could have been two of my children and potentially me killed by a scrambler on a road we were later informed had no cameras working on it. That is not good enough for safety. If we are saying we need safety for the public, why are the cameras not working?

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you.

Mr. Martin Lynch

Can I raise one last thing before we go?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Martin Lynch

It is to the RSA. My sister wrote to the RSA regarding an ad campaign and she got no response. Rachel Lynch is her name. She got no response. She asked for a similar campaign to the one the RSA did on drunk driving and dangerous driving around Christmastime and she got no acknowledgement. I thought that was very poor, to be honest. It needs to be said.

Mr. Michael Rowland

I am very disappointed to hear that. I will follow through on it. The communications team have been working on a campaign - a social media campaign. I will follow up in relation to the response.

Mr. Martin Lynch

Thanks very much.

Ms Siobhan Lynch

Thank you.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. Go ahead, Ms Price.

Ms Donna Price

I want to make one comment. We are looking for zero tolerance of lawbreaking road users. The Garda has to have our full support. Its members should not have any fear of being prosecuted. I think that is the root of it all and that is nonsensical. We cannot have the situation arising where a garda sees someone breaking the law and has a fear of apprehending them.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a good sentiment to end with. I again thank Mr. Noonan and the Irish Motorcycle Association, Mr. Rowland and Ms Burns from the Road Safety Authority and Ms Price and Mr. Lieghio from the Irish Road Victims Association. I thank the Commissioner, the deputy commissioner and the assistant commissioner for being here. It sends a signal that the three highest-ranking members of the Garda made themselves available at relatively short notice, so I thank you all for that. Finally, to Mr. Lynch and Ms Lynch, nothing is ever going to undo what you have been through but I hope you know you are doing Grace, and countless other Graces who I hope will never even know they have been beneficiaries of the work you have done, a huge service. I thank the members. I think we were all equally in breach of any time limits in place, but in my time as Cathaoirleach of this committee there has never been a hearing that has had such interest. I counted at least four other Members of the Houses coming in at different points, probably with a hope or expectation they would have an opportunity. That gives a sense of prevalence of this issue.

Can I get the agreement of the committee that we will publish the opening statements on the committee's website? It is agreed. I thank everyone for being involved. We will go into private session to consider a number of housekeeping matters.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.09 p.m. and adjourned at 5.10 p.m. sine die.

• Ar ais chuig clár ábhair